US Kendo Level

[itazura]

I’m wondering if the level of US kendo has become stagnant? I looked at the results for the past WKC and the US has failed to place since 1982 in the men’s team. We all know that basically Japan and Korea send pro teams while the rest of us send an amateur team. Third place should still be wide open. It seems like the Europeans are passing us by.

Why is it these guys can come from Japan and just blow us off the court? I suppose most of the answer has to do with the fact that we go to practice once or twice a week and call it good while they go 5 or 6 days a week.

Also if you look at the Europeans they have many more people that are advancing in kodansha ranks. Lately the US list only seems to have people with Japanese surnames passing for godan and above. My non-Japanese friends and friends from Japan have noticed this.

Why is it so many of the sensei here don’t seem to get along? I had a friend from outside the US ask me why there were only Japanese surnames on our US board of directors. I didn’t have a good answer.

The forum on US citizen only in the US tournament has validity. The problem is we can’t charge everyone the same and then tell them they can’t compete. Also the US federation is a non-profit organization and cannot discriminate. Japan would never let a non-citizen in their tournament. Just think about sumo and what a big deal it was when a non-Japanese won that.

Well this is just food for thought for Americans. Opinions please.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by itazura
Why is it these guys can come from Japan and just blow us off the court? I suppose most of the answer has to do with the fact that we go to practice once or twice a week and call it good while they go 5 or 6 days a week.
It's not only that (although that's a large part of it). It's also pulling from a large talent pool and having an infrastructure of coaching and competition from a very young level. Same reason why Canadians do well in hockey - probably 1/3 of kids play organised hockey from age 5 or 6 on through high school.

You have maybe 2000 people playing kendo in the US? What are the odds of getting the super-talented people in that little pool? Face it, kids who are athletically inclined excel at most any sport they pick, so long as they pick it young. To get a Miyazaki or a Gretzky, you have to have the happy circumstance of great athletic ability, talent for the sport, picking that sport out of all the others, and an infrastructure of coaches and competition against other high-level talents.

As far as why the US doesn't make the top 4 - don't you guys usually just get a bad draw and hit Korea or Japan one round earlier than we do?

[Confound]

Before giving you a severe reality check, let me say this: If Misterkurukuru and his ilk are indicitive of what America has been taking to the world cup, it's no wonder you don't do well.

As for Japanese people allowing foreigners to compete in their tournaments, they most certainly do! I have been in two now, and I'm sure Iwatekenshi, Hyakutake and Nodachi have been in one or two as well.

You want us citizens only in your tournaments? That sounds an awful lot like saying "I won't play if I you don't let me win". Might I point out to you that America (and Canada to a greater extent) is a country where people of many different ethnicities hold US citizenship. From the sounds of things, you want to define a US citizen as anyone who doesn't have a Japanese surname. (... and people called me a bigot...)

Are you trying to say that the requirements for passing godan and higher ranks include having a Japanese surname? Allow me to elucidate: To pass an exam, what is required is good solid kendo, not wobbly eel neck, tricky dodgy sports kendo, but that's a topic for another day.

Lastly, you have a point about practicing, so get out there and practice more. Joina second club, do something other than complain that the Japanese are 'controlling' your kendo federation.

c

c

[itazura]

As usual Confound has missed the total point of the post and has turned it into a personal attack yet again. I suggest you it read again carefully.

Yes you can compete in local tournaments in Japan. Try to get into the big regional tournaments though or the All Japan. You will likely find you cannot enter.

I am merely making an observation on the current climate by many people. It has no effect on me.

The kendo population in the US is in fact mostly non-Japanese in ethnic origin.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You're jumping the gun in your criticism there, Confound. I haven't heard any complaints from the US side about Japanese faces winning - it was more about Japanese citizens.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of the team members in the US and Canada are of Japanese descent. Why is this? Because most of the clubs are drawn from the local Japanese community and frankly a lot of the top players are sensei's kids (over 50% of the Canadian team). This is because Japanese-Canadian or American kids are far more likely to be taken (or dragged in some cases) to the dojo at an early age than other kids. Especially if they are sensei's kids.

Why is this an issue? Because clearly the talent pool is being limited, which speaks to the potential of North American kendo, both from a competitive point of view and in general. We're not going to grow kendo here unless we can promote it amongst the general public. Once we see people of all ethnic backgrounds a) knowing what the hell kendo is and b) considering it as a good activity to start as a kid, we will see growth and progress here.

[William Honda]

I don't think it is even about a specific Japanese citizen winning. The person just happened to be Japanese in this case. It is about American citizens participating to find the best AMERICAN. No one cares that the citizen is naturalized. Just an American citizen.


William

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by William Honda
It is about American citizens participating to find the best AMERICAN. No one cares that the citizen is naturalized. Just an American citizen.


What do you think about the argument that someone raised, that the All United States Kendo Federation is a private and non-profit organization? Its only requirement for participation in its tournaments is the membership, and it collects the membership fee from everyone whether the person is from Zimbabwe or Mars. Thus, how can it stop a due-paying AUSKF member from participating in the AUSKF National tournament? The word "national" in the tournament title denotes the level of geographic coverage of the tournament; it is not an exclusionary condition based on citizenship.

No American citizen lost an opportunity to be on the national team. The only loss here is the pride of some American citizen kendo player who did not get the first place in a tournament particpated by all the best kendo players in the USA.

[Kendoka]

Mmm interesting.

The rules for WKC state that a competitor must be a citizen of the nation that they compete for.

In Australia, the National competition is for Australian Permanent Residents and Citizens only.

Foreigners are permitted to compete at state level competitions.

I can't see why restricting a National competition to citizens (or those in the queue for citizenship) of that Nation would be regarded as discriminatory.

[kendomushi]

In Japan there are many non-Japanese in competitions. Mostly Koreans, but others as well. And our club had participated in the largest regional tournament in Tokyo every year for 10 of the past 11 years.
But I can't say anything to the level of US kendo other than based on what americans here do, they just don't practice enough on average to hold up long against those with long term, youth to old age, training regimens and who make practice their lifestyle as opposed to a devout hobby.

[Tenken]

why do you guys talk about misterkurukuru so much. I thought that this was going to be about the US kendo level. why go off the subject? he's not even in this thead.

[Confound]

I was still burning up about kurukuru's post when responding. You'll forgive me for extending kurukuru's views to other Americans as well, since their country has been so poorly represented as of late.

c

[William Honda]

Slidecrack,

You bring up a good point. The rules are the rules, and if it allows dues paying AUSKF members to participate that is end of subject for that National Tournament. The winner is the winner and should represent. I am not clear on citizenship then.

The Japanese citizen was not allowed to go and second place US citizen went. If a non US citizen cannot represent, why allow non US citizen to participate? Unless it is to act as a spoiler (no negative connotations).

I think AUSKF needs to look long and hard then address issue.

William

[Antonin]

William,
I think you mix up things. Why link winning the national with being selected ? I agree that it is probably a good idea to have the winner of the nationals on the squad if s/he is eligible, but it is just a convenient way of selection. In the end, it is the coache's decision as to who's on the squad in my opinion...
As I alerady pointed out, you seem to mix two quite different issues here...
A.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I disagree about the squad being entirely the coach's decision. I think that would leave a lot of room for grumbling.

In Canada it used to be top 4 at nationals were automatically on the team. But basing a large part of the team on the results of one tournament seemed kind of random. OTOH that tournament should mean *something*. So now the top 2 make the team.

We also have a round-robin qualifying stage. There's a round-robin for west, east and atlantic regions. Top 5 from west and east and top 2 from atlantic get to go to national round-robin, so there's 12 total in that round-robin, held day after nationals. Top 4 from the national round-robin make the team.

So 6 of the members are selected in a very clear-cut process that everyone can see, not much room for complaint. The final 3 are coach's choice, and again who can argue - the coach has his reasons be they team completeness, future development, whatever.

I think we have a really good process and the result is quite a strong team.

[AlexM]

Antonin,

Selecting the national team should never be left solely up to the coach. That is by far the worst process for making a team in my opinion. Winning the nationals and making the national team are very much linked on this side of the Atlantic.

In the case of Canada it's fairly structured: Winner and 2nd place of the national tournament (so they have to be citizens) + the top 4 people from the selection round-robin (just getting to the selection round-robin requires you to be one of the 5 or 2 chosen in the regional selection process, which requires a round-robin in itself) + up to 3 coach's choices.

The national coach here only selects 3 people maximum, the rest have to earn their spot. I think if you had a process whereby the national coach chose everyone you would definately get conflicts of interest and unhappy people (possibly thinking, "why can't I make it when I beat that guy in the last 3 tourneys"). The "coach chooses everyone" strikes me as elitism. If it were just up to the coach here there would be a lot of people questionning decisions much more (although for the record I very much trust the current Team Canada coach).

I much prefer the idea that you have to earn your spot.

As for kendo in the US.... it's fine as far as I know (at least on the West Coast it is... elsewhere it isn't as consistenly good, except for NYC). Very strong kendoka. It's basically good where there are Japanese communities. Neil summed it up perfectly in fact so I won't just repeat.

[Antonin]

Well, I was just saying that in the context of the confusion regaring nationals/resident/etc...
Actually, i knind of agree with the idea of earning your spot. And despite what some people seem to imply, this is what seems to happen in the US: the best american in the national (association) championship was selected. SO no problem, guys...
A.

[itazura]

The US has a selection process for the team for the WKC. For the men’s team I believe nine positions are selected through a round robin elimination with a wild card spot going to the winner of the US championship if that individual is not already on the team. The WKC requires that all members be a citizen of their country. Therefore if the winner is not a US citizen then it goes to the second place winner if they are a citizen. Beyond that I am not sure.

This raises the issue of what's the US championship for? Is it to determine who is the best US citizen that day or who is just the best of whoever enters. Since the tournament is only held every 3 years it's kind of fleeting moment. Interaction with other kenshi from different countries is important. We just have to decide what the goal of the tournament is and make the appropriate changes or leave it alone.

The bottom line is that if we want this changed then it must be made clear to the US leaders.

I was hoping for some discussion of the other issues I raised by Americans.

[Tashaki Nakata]

To the point...
In general, americans ain't too good at kendo.
The only American kendoka I respect is Henry Smalls.

[itazura]

I would say that your exposure has been very limited then. America in fact has some very good kenshi.

Beyond the top kenshi that you see from the universities and police the average Japanese kenshi are just that, average. They are no better than the rest of the world. And I've practiced with a lot of them.....

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Tashaki Nakata
To the point...
In general, americans ain't too good at kendo.
The only American kendoka I respect is Henry Smalls.

Apparently trash-talk ain't limited to the Yanks.

[nodachi]

"The only American kendoka I respect is Henry Smalls."

That's not very nice. Granted some of us may not be so good because we are beginners or we don't have as much exposure to the same quantity of skilled sensei, but many of us do work hard, train hard, and have a sense of politeness.

By the way, who is this Henry Smalls?

Pardon my ignorance...

[moocow65]

henry smalls is a guy from hawaii who does kendo (duh), but he has no legs. he does jodan using his right arm, and he moves around using his left arm. i saw a short match of him at the kyoto world championships and he got a men on some guy. so that's probably why that guy (i forgot his name takashi? tashaki?) respects him. oh i also wanna clear something up with itazura-kun cause he seems to be pissed off at me, or at least i think he was talking about me. these are the results of the final final round of the US team eliminations. chinen (1st, 5th overall, automatically on team), yang (2nd, 6th overall), me (3rd, 7th overall), matsuda (4th, 8th overall). coaches selection yang and matsuda. i got passed up and became an alternate with abe who was eliminated in the second consolation round i think, although he sure kicked ass in the first consolation round. as for not earning the spot, well i leave that up to you. i'm guessing seeing me practice at every single team practice (except for one, i had work that day) or from people saying that the position was given to me was the basis of your judgement??? anywho, probably the main reason why the US hasn't taken third in the world championships was because, as someone earlier said, we go against korea or japan earlier than the other countries. but that's no excuse. if we really wanted third, then we would have beat them. maybe we will this time around, or maybe canada who almost beat japan 3 years ago.

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by Tashaki Nakata
To the point...
In general, americans ain't too good at kendo.
The only American kendoka I respect is Henry Smalls.

Hmm, correct bad English. Sore wa ii.

[itazura]

Dear moocow65,

Actually I am not mad at all at any members. The members are not responsible in any way. What I am concerned about is the way the leadership in the US seems to act. This goes way beyond the team selection. I feel the members are not getting all they pay for in dues.

And yes the US does end up with Japan or Korea. Apparently the draw is done alphabetically. Who in their right mind would pick one of the pro teams.

Lastly I wish the team all the best. With any luck I'll go and watch.

PS I not even mad at kurukuru. I know he has lots to offer if he chooses to.

[Hongsermeier]

Tashaki.....I don't think you know many US Kenshi. If you'd like to meet some or parctice with some of the best, come for a visit. I'd be glad to give you free room to stay. Home cooked Japanese food and take you to a few different practices. I'd be glad to take time off work to show you around.

[samurai999]

Tashaki?

Do you know exactly who plays on the US team? Have you ever played against any of the players on the US team? Didn't think so..

Smalls is sorta inspiring because of the fact that he plays with no legs. I respect the guy too. But, we have players that can score on and beat Japanese and Korean Kenshi. C. Yang beat both a Japanese and Korean kenshi in 2000. You see that? I guess not. Buy a video from a video shop and watch.

Tim