Positive vs. Negative Kendo

[ShinKenshi]

I had a discussion with my dojo's mentor sensei and we started talking about the difference between positive and negative kendo. In a nutshell, I was told that positive kendo is about putting positive pressure on your opponent to create an oppening as opposed to negative pressure in which you would deliberately leave an opening on yourself to provoke your opponent to attack and subsequently opening targets on themselves. I was also told that this negative pressure is something that isn't encouraged all that much anymore with a greater emphasis on teaching positive kendo. What do you guys feel are the benefits and draw backs of each? Do you feel one is better over the other or does it more depend on the kendoka's skill? Also, in your own words, what do you feel is "good kendo"?

[DCPan]

I had a discussion with my dojo's mentor sensei and we started talking about the difference between positive and negative kendo. In a nutshell, I was told that positive kendo is about putting positive pressure on your opponent to create an oppening as opposed to negative pressure in which you would deliberately leave an opening on yourself to provoke your opponent to attack and subsequently opening targets on themselves. I was also told that this negative pressure is something that isn't encouraged all that much anymore with a greater emphasis on teaching positive kendo. What do you guys feel are the benefits and draw backs of each? Do you feel one is better over the other or does it more depend on the kendoka's skill? Also, in your own words, what do you feel is "good kendo"?

What you are saying sounds more like ying vs. yang to me.

When I hear words like positive or negative, I think more along the following lines:
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=140639#post140639

[DCPan]

I was also told that this negative pressure is something that isn't encouraged all that much anymore with a greater emphasis on teaching positive kendo. What do you guys feel are the benefits and draw backs of each?

In my opinion, what you call "negative kendo" isn't encouraged in the formative stage (i.e. up through yondan) because you first need to learn how to go get it.

By go get it, I mean you need to learn how to make a good primary attack first.

After you can go get it, then you can start exploring negative pressure because if your opponent doesn't take the bait, you can force feed him to take the bait with your ability to go it.

That's why I think it's silly to try to do oji-waza against high level sensei. IMHO, against a high-level sensei, you should just attack and feed off his kigurai. Even if you miss every single time, if you develop a good follow through, you'll find subsequent keiko with your peers to be MUCH easier.

FWIW.

[tantadi]

That's why I think it's silly to try to do oji-waza against high level sensei. IMHO, against a high-level sensei, you should just attack and feed off his kigurai. Even if you miss every single time, if you develop a good follow through, you'll find subsequent keiko with your peers to be MUCH easier.

FWIW.
What if the higher grades/instructors are the one mostly attacking you? I'm a little stuck in oji-waza land now. How do I get out?

[tantadi]

ShinKenshi: I don't think it is negative kendo if you have a really strong center and can make a lot of pressure. If your kamae is weak to begin with it is very negative.

[The great I AM]

I I was also told that this negative pressure is something that isn't encouraged all that much anymore with a greater emphasis on teaching positive kendo. What do you guys feel are the benefits and draw backs of each? Do you feel one is better over the other or does it more depend on the kendoka's skill? Also, in your own words, what do you feel is "good kendo"?Not so sure about "good" kendo, as with some exceptions thats a very subjective topic, but on this idea of "negative" kendo, how do I get someone to attack me without giving them an opening?If I'm giving somebody so much of your "positive" pressure that they can't attack, the natural instinct is then for them to start blocking, which will result in gridlock and nobody really doing anything. I think its all about give and take. Give them a target, then take it away again. Otherwise why bother with oji waza full stop?

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Not talking about good or bad kendo here but to me leaving an opening on purpose is plain risky and stupid; not to mention a tad bit arrogant. (and I know cuz I did that in other sports :wink: )
If its someone youve never played before, how do you know he isnt gonna score on that opening. Being sure of youre self, confident, is something different from cocky.
What about the saying of dont hit and win, but win, then hit....
You need to win the fight, not hope your opponent will mess up and you get the point on him.

Also I think its more of a modern competitors trend to create an opening on an oponent to strike back in order to get a faster point instead of wait for the right time.....

[The great I AM]

Not talking about good or bad kendo here but to me leaving an opening on purpose is plain risky and stupid; not to mention a tad bit arrogant. (and I know cuz I did that in other sports :wink: )
If its someone youve never played before, how do you know he isnt gonna score on that opening. Being sure of youre self, confident, is something different from cocky.
What about the saying of dont hit and win, but win, then hit....
You need to win the fight, not hope your opponent will mess up and you get the point on him.

Also I think its more of a modern competitors trend to create an opening on an oponent to strike back in order to get a faster point instead of wait for the right time.....

You really have no idea what you're talking about. For a perfect example, ask someone who may have it for a copy of the NHK showing of the 2003 all japan taikai, and watch the quarter final that Fukaya Hitoshi wins, and watch how he scores kaeshi dou. Then you may understand a little. Maybe. And only a little.

And on your point of win, then hit, if you can get someone to attack when you want them to to what you want them to, thus giving you the perfect oppourtunity to use ojiwaza, is that not exactly what you mean? Or have I missed something here too? Maybe I'm too stupid, arrogant and cocky (it has been said).

[Kingofmyrrh]

Not talking about good or bad kendo here but to me leaving an opening on purpose is plain risky and stupid; not to mention a tad bit arrogant. (and I know cuz I did that in other sports :wink: )
If its someone youve never played before, how do you know he isnt gonna score on that opening. Being sure of youre self, confident, is something different from cocky.
What about the saying of dont hit and win, but win, then hit....
You need to win the fight, not hope your opponent will mess up and you get the point on him.

Also I think its more of a modern competitors trend to create an opening on an oponent to strike back in order to get a faster point instead of wait for the right time.....
Keep practicing for 5 years, come back and read your post, enjoy a good laugh.

[bullet08]

shouldn't it be other way around? being proactive and inviting others to attack.. shouldn't that be more positive.. where as just keep pressuring and waiting for something to happen, more passive and therefore negative?

pete

[ShinKenshi]

ShinKenshi: I don't think it is negative kendo if you have a really strong center and can make a lot of pressure. If your kamae is weak to begin with it is very negative.When I say positive or negative, I'm not talking about good or bad. What I mean by positive pressure is to assert yourself and give your opponent the feeling that you are coming after him/her. By negative pressure, I'm talking about things like making it look like you're open when in fact all you're doing is baiting someone to come and attack you and then taking advantage of the openings your opponent creates when they take that bait. Again, nothing to do with good or bad.

[LarsCW]

I would see controlling the moment of your opponents attack and what he/she will attack as a great advantage. At this point I lack the skill to do something with it but I do see what advantage you could get out of it.

I'm now doing kendo for about a year and with some sempai I feel heavy pressure and then I would go backwards for better ma-ai and get complaints from them about doing that having them following me. So this is something we have been working on the last months now.

[Ignatz]

It is waiting for the other to attack so as to counter that is discouraged. Luring another into an attack is a different animal. The lure has to be very subtle or the other will say "This is a trick". If I keep a very, very strong center then my opponent will morel likely attempt kote than men which allows me to do kote nuki men. Same applies to nuki do, your men attack causes the opponent to raise his hands.
On the one hand you might say that these are "negative" but are they really? I don't think so.
BTW I am more likely to get suckered by nuki do than anything but I'm getting better, almost at the same instant I begin my attack the little voice inside me is screaming "NOOOOOO! It's a trap!"

[Neil Gendzwill]

I prefer to think more in terms of pushing seme and pulling seme. It's all seme. But pulling seme is very advanced - I'm still really working mostly on pushing seme.

If you play some strong sensei and find yourself always getting countered, even though they are old and slow, you are the victim of pulling seme. When this happens to me, I don't recall consciously seeing an opening - I just feel inclined to hit something, and they counter it because they know I'm coming.

[tantadi]

When I say positive or negative, I'm not talking about good or bad. What I mean by positive pressure is to assert yourself and give your opponent the feeling that you are coming after him/her. By negative pressure, I'm talking about things like making it look like you're open when in fact all you're doing is baiting someone to come and attack you and then taking advantage of the openings your opponent creates when they take that bait. Again, nothing to do with good or bad.

I think pressure always is positive. There is no such thing as negative pressure. It poses a threath to the opponent, which have to find a way to deal with it. And if there is a bait, who says you have to take it? Maybe your own bait could tempt the opp? And what sort of plan is behind the bait? Maybe your plan is better?

What I ment with negative, as in bad (sucky) is to be open and passive and think you are baiting.

[Shazzanzzz]

What I find myself doing these days is that against strong senseis I tend to use what you call 'negative pressure' more, since, their 'positive pressure' is stronger than mine and I can't create any openings from it, my only chance is 'negative pressure.' It works as long as I'm faster than the person I'm fighting.

[tantadi]

So what is the solution for those who can't create openings and also are too slow in their counters? Pleaase tell me...

[Shazzanzzz]

Learn.... I would say most counters isn't about speed but about maai, compactness of movement, finger and wrist power and flexibility, and most importantly, knowing what the opponent is going to do.

I don't know how you can learn seme. Seems like you have to learn it not just from kendo but from life. Any opinions on this?

[tantadi]

Well, you brought up the speed issue...imo I think those who can't make openings also will tend to be too slow timing or not...

[Bear of Doom]

I had a discussion with my dojo's mentor sensei and we started talking about the difference between positive and negative kendo. In a nutshell, I was told that positive kendo is about putting positive pressure on your opponent to create an oppening as opposed to negative pressure in which you would deliberately leave an opening on yourself to provoke your opponent to attack and subsequently opening targets on themselves. I was also told that this negative pressure is something that isn't encouraged all that much anymore with a greater emphasis on teaching positive kendo. What do you guys feel are the benefits and draw backs of each? Do you feel one is better over the other or does it more depend on the kendoka's skill? Also, in your own words, what do you feel is "good kendo"?

From my experience, what you would call positive kendo is encouraged as the 'proper' kendo, and is what most senseis tell their students to do. Play straight kendo, force/find an opening ... but for shi-ai, its a different story, for competitive players, you'd do anything to win won't you?
Some senseis would secretly teach their students 'negative kendo' ... "sucker 'em up! and make them feel like an idiot ... but of course, noo sensei has ever taught you that, you learned it all on your own ... :cheeky:" *cough cough* but of course if you're good enough, you wouldn't need any of that would you? Do proper kendo! because it's really self development we're trying to achieve in kendo ... I would want to win and be proud that I've won because of my kendo, not because I tricked someone into it ... but of course there's always the fun/pleasure/satisfaction factor involve *sigh* the devil's curse.

In my humble opinion, or at least what I usually do, is I use 'negative' kendo whilst fighting new opponents (which could sometimes cause you dearly, you have to really observe their speed and play around with your opponent a bit), because creating fake openings for them would give sort of a sample as to what your opponent's natural reactions to certain openings are .. then you could perhaps turn that around to your advantage.
But mostly, if you're really bored and want to whoop beginners (not the correct mentality here, don't try this at your dojo :silly: copying the don't try this at home phrase) for the hell of it, or personal ego pleasure, I recommend negative Kendo. It's funn to lure 'em in and pop 'em :devious: (shhh! don't tell anyone)

So, those are my thoughts ... feel free to comment

[Charlie]

Neil and Dave had the right answer way back in the beginning of this thread. Pushing seme until you're quite advanced. I can do pulling kendo sometimes against people that are less experienced than me but for the most part, yes, pushing seme is where it's at.

But then we get what Gibbo and tantadi are saying:


So what is the solution for those who can't create openings and also are too slow in their counters? Pleaase tell me...

First of all, revisit the "Men Blocker" thread, Gibbs. One thing: think of kendo beyond each strike. With a men-blocker you have to think long term. You are a Go player, aren't you, or do I have you confused with someone else? With your men blocker do something like: cut man (blocked), hiki men (blocked), cut men (blocked) hiki men - wait, hiki kote!!! IPPON!

And tantadi, my answer would be - keep practicing! Keep practicing to increase the strength of your seme and your speed. Just keep attacking.

[JSchmidt]

So what is the solution for those who can't create openings and also are too slow in their counters? Pleaase tell me...

Mainly the boring answer: More practice. Tactics, as Charlie describes are nice, but ultimatly not what you want. I think all of us want to learn how to use seme directly to create an opportunity.
Ultimatly, it always comes down to footwork.

[Charlie]

True, J, true. The tactics I suggested were meant only in response to a "men blocker." Practice, as J says, is the ultimate answer.

[Shazzanzzz]

Senseis or older people who does 'old man' kendo frustrates me sometimes... I attack out of frustration because it's just practice and I feel like i'm wasting time before we have to rotate again.

Does that count as giving in to their seme?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Why do you feel it's a waste of time to play sensei?

[Charlie]

What is old man kendo?

[Ignatz]

Senseis or older people who does 'old man' kendo frustrates me sometimes... I attack out of frustration because it's just practice and I feel like i'm wasting time before we have to rotate again.

Does that count as giving in to their seme?
If you are ever in NYC go to Kenshin-kai or NYC Kendo and tell them you want a piece of Ojiisan and we'll see what you've got sonny. Wasting time indeed. If learning is a waste of your time you are in the wrong game.

[Shazzanzzz]

Sorry if I came out sounding wrong.... I just mean, I know if I attack I'll get countered... so I want to do the right thing and wait for an opening... but sensei's are better than me so obviously they won't give me one usually. And I want to learn from the sensei, so I don't just want to either just attack foolishly or just stand there and do nothing. What should I do?

[Neil Gendzwill]

See the advice here (http://www.kendo.org.uk/articles/jigeiko/02/) for playing against seniors. Stop worrying about him hitting you so much, just give him your best kendo.

[Charlie]

Good one, Neil. Yeah, Shazz, try to create the opening through strong basics. Get beat on.

[Old Warrior]

See the advice here (http://www.kendo.org.uk/articles/jigeiko/02/) for playing against seniors. Stop worrying about him hitting you so much, just give him your best kendo.

I just let them wear themselves out trying for men when the shoto picks them off fairly easily. I try and size them up for their weaknesses and then go after them one by one. I always tell them what it takes to beat a nito player and see if they get it. My goal is to imrpove my kendo; which requires my opponent to always be better than me. So, I encourage their best kendo and are just thankful for the experience.

[Mugu]

Sorry if I came out sounding wrong.... I just mean, I know if I attack I'll get countered... so I want to do the right thing and wait for an opening... but sensei's are better than me so obviously they won't give me one usually. And I want to learn from the sensei, so I don't just want to either just attack foolishly or just stand there and do nothing. What should I do?
I don't know about your sensei, but I love it when I do my best to cut a good Men strike on sensei even though I know it's going to be blocked. Every now and then, I'll see a big smile on his face that he sees me trying my best. That gave me a lot of encouragement to keep on attacking. So far, that taught me there is no such thing as a "foolish attack" if you're doing your best.

[Mugu]

Oops dobule post

[Shazzanzzz]

It's true that during practice there is no 'foolish attack', since you learn something from everyone of them. But, to learn when to attack and not to attack, you can't just not think and attack all the time.

[Shazzanzzz]

Oh, and thank you Neil. Maybe I try a little too hard to beat everyone these days... Gotta go back to the basics, especially against seniors instead of trying to beat them.

[Ignatz]

...But, to learn when to attack and not to attack, you can't just not think and attack all the time.
Why not?
When I was a beginner my sensei would make an opening and if I didn't go for it he would say "Why not go for it?" I would respond "You would have blocked and counter attacked" He would say"Of course I would, I'm sensei. When I can't, you can be sensei"
Here is the idea, you go for it 1000 times and get it once, maybe. Next 1000 tries 10 times. Next, maybe 100, etc.
Being all about "winning" is not an unusual position. Keep on training.

[Shazzanzzz]

Well, not trying to argue, because I do agree with you. But, I think that depends on where you are in kendo. When you are a beginner, you have to keep attacking to learn when to attack, then you still keep attacking so you can learn when not to attack.

That much said, I really do think I need to go back to the basics and attack more. I feel like I've been relying on my debana and kaeshi wazas way too much. People who knows me would agree... I need to get back being aggressive again, which is what used to make people be so aggressive against me in the first place, which made my counters more effective than right now.

[Charlie]

"Of course I would, I'm sensei. When I can't, you can be sensei"

ROFL!

But, yeah, of course you can not think and attack all the time. You'll be attacking on a more instinctive level.

[Mugu]

If you read my first part correctly, I said "try to cut a good Men". And I hope to do that every time, it didn't mean I attacked like crazy like during Kakarigeiko. I do think a bit before attacking. I learned that if I stand there long enough, my Kote will be really sorry. In order to avoid more broken pieces on my right hand, I attack... besides that, attacking can train my spirit and be stronger.

[Sweet Lou]

When I face a sensei or a senior, knowing that there is always someone better than you, I focus on how to maintain a strong spirit. No matter how you fight them, they will make you feel like... how you really suck and need practice. This is what makes me want to be a better kendoist. Maybe that's why I love fighting senseis. At the end of the fight, no matter how my defeat is, I am happy that I gave all I got with strong spirit and my best to maintain correct kendo. But you know what... sometimes it's really hard! :)

[tantadi]

Well, not trying to argue, because I do agree with you. But, I think that depends on where you are in kendo. When you are a beginner, you have to keep attacking to learn when to attack, then you still keep attacking so you can learn when not to attack.


You can also learn from what response you get from your attacks, even if they fail. The first time I did keiko with one of my new sensei, a japanese godan, I got so in awe by his suriage men that I only did men attack just to experience it more. None of my attacks scored of course...but he told me afterwards that my men was good, and that I should keep at it. So now I have a quite defined keiko with him, but it is not frustrating to me, quite the opposite in fact. He is very fast and responsive and I feel that my men attack improves every time. He sort of gives me an extra gear.:happy:

[Ignatz]

That much said, I really do think I need to go back to the basics and attack more.
It is always basics even when you are doing advanced stuff. I recently had the pleasure of a few minutes keiko with Jeff Marsten sensei. He made me his Do bitch then kindly told me how I was open. Simple basic kamae.
If you are monitoring this sensei, I'm up to about 18 1/2 percent now and improving.
I regularly go to beginners classes and highly recommend it.

[The great I AM]

When I was a beginner my sensei would make an opening and if I didn't go for it he would say "Why not go for it?" I would respond "You would have blocked and counter attacked" He would say"Of course I would, I'm sensei. When I can't, you can be sensei"Your sensei sounds liek a genius to me. That is possibly the best response to one of the most thought of problems I've ever heard. I'm going to plagerise (sp?) your sensei!

[DCPan]

Why not?
When I was a beginner my sensei would make an opening and if I didn't go for it he would say "Why not go for it?" I would respond "You would have blocked and counter attacked" He would say"Of course I would, I'm sensei. When I can't, you can be sensei"

Hmm...my question is this, how can you move from "seeing" an opening to "feeling" an opening, if you are training to go for something that you don't "feel" is open?

[tantadi]

You have to attack fake openings so that the sensei can practice their counters.:puzzled:. And to practice attacks in general. I like to deviate from that dance sometimes, go for what I see as an opening and not what is presented for me, and more often than not, I score.:cool2:

[Ignatz]

Hmm...my question is this, how can you move from "seeing" an opening to "feeling" an opening, if you are training to go for something that you don't "feel" is open?
The same way you get to Carnegie Hall. Practice, practice, practice. There is no substitute for hard training. You can't just intellectualize the "feeling" part and skip the "seeing" part. You have to sweat, a lot. You have to train to the point of exhaustion, often and for a long time. No short cuts here.