small/medium men: move forward to the eyes

[MRD]

My sensei told me when doing a small/medium men, I ought to move in and aim the shanai tip at the opponents eyes, and at the last minute, do a cut. I guess this whole motion is part of a fumikomi? Does anyone have any idea of how this aiming for the eyes work? I tend to push my shinai instead of cutting because I don't know how I can retain the arc motion of a big men. My shoulders are not really doing much, unlike in a big men. If I just simply snap my wrist at the last minute to do the cut, I am not really doing the arc motion that is very noticable in a big men... or am I?

Just for reference, I came across this thread but could find no answer

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5145&highlight=sashi

thanks!

[bullet08]

i've seen two different ways of doing small/medium cut.. and i'm sure there are more. one that i seen a lot is sort of leading with shinai, then cut.. then one i use lately is punch my left hand forward and snap it down. sort of found out that even with big cut if i punch my left hand up then snap, i can clear my men with left kote and still could do not so slow cut.

i was told leading with shinai could telegraph your intention to aite, but it can lead to faster ai-men/debana men.

i could be wrong on all counts. my small cut sucks big time.

pete

[Ignatz]

I think that the better your opponent is, the less success you will have with leading with your hands. For example, let's say the opponent is coming in body first and then his hands start to move, if he is doing it correctly you will not know if he is going kote, men, do or tsuki (heck he might not have decided yet) You move hands first for debana men and you just gave him kote.
Body first, then hands.

[JByrd]

My understanding is that a smaller swing is to be done exactly like the bigger swing except with less range of motion in the backswing. Nothing about the path the hands take should change, they just don't come up as high before they start back down with the cut. How high do the hands go? In general, your left hand needs to rise a little higher than where it will finish. For example, left hand finishes men strike about 4 inches below the chin, so lift the left hand to chin level on the backswing.

In addition to questioning my senseis on that issue, I watched a lot of slo-mo video of very good players to come to the above conclusions.

[tango]

My sensei told me when doing a small/medium men, I ought to move in and aim the shanai tip at the opponents eyes, and at the last minute, do a cut. I guess this whole motion is part of a fumikomi? Does anyone have any idea of how this aiming for the eyes work?

It can work perfectly as demonstrated on my against Shinobu Maeda-sensei (SEUSKF) when he was then 6.dan and I, a mere shodan. He did this motion you describe fairly quickly such that I thought he was trying to do tsuki... and everytime, without fail, I would take a step back or just pull my head back to avoid the "tsuki" only to have my men kabong'd.. He had (errr.. has) a VERY strong wrist snapping action such that this "small cut" is unquestionably cutting something (rather than just "touching" the men).

I tried to do this later on with our own folks in class and sometimes it worked for me, sometimes it didn't. If kensen comes up to quickly (rather than gradually moving forward), then the move is telegraphed... if kensen goes to high (above motodachi's line of sight), then the move is telegraphed... those little things always set me up to get hit with either debana men or debana kote. ...but when I did it just right, motodachi seemed to think I was attacking tsuki... so it worked just like seme... and scoring men was very effective.

YMMV.


I tend to push my shinai instead of cutting because I don't know how I can retain the arc motion of a big men. My shoulders are not really doing much, unlike in a big men. If I just simply snap my wrist at the last minute to do the cut, I am not really doing the arc motion that is very noticable in a big men... or am I?



No, you're not doing a big men, but if you get enough snap in the wrist, it doesn't mean you're not performing an adequate strike to the men.
What I mean is... in order to have yukodatotsu, you don't have to do a big, iaido-type-arc swing. You can have such a small men that there's no arc whatsoever, such that you only "touch" the men... not cutting the men and arguably not even "slicing" the men. ...although it seems I've seen those scored at tournaments on occasion. There's a happy medium to be had there.

If you were able to start this motion described by your sensei and at the last minute, snap the wrists to cut the men, you might be surprised at how much "arc" your wrists create if you were to watch it in slow motion.

You can create arc in your swing by moving your arms up above your head and then coming down. No question about that.
You can also create arc (to varying degrees) by holding your arms straight out and only flexing your wrists up and down -- in fact, if you were to try it right now in front of your computer (pretend you're holding a shinai with your arms straight out/parallel to the earth), you should see that just by flexing your wrists, you could move the shinai from a 0-degree position to a 90-degree position. That's plenty of arc to cut off the kote.. and when you factor in forward movement, fumikomi, etc. etc. it's plenty to cut through the men as well.

I hope that might have answered your question..
and I'm always willing to hear a contrary opinion...

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Body first, then hands.

Exactamundo.....

When Sensei taught me sashi men I was told to aim for the 'tsukipad'. The 1st mistake I made was when moving forward I also moved my arms towards my opponent at the same time and that was a no-no.
You should lift your front leg up and push your body forward and fumikomi as late as possible, maintaining seme all the time untill you almost hit tsuki. Only then at the last moment lift your shinai up a little above your opponents men and cut it, together with the fumikomi.

[Ignatz]

and he steps slightly to the right and hits you do, or slightly to the left and hits you kote, or does the third kata or the fourth kata or anyone of 10 or 15 things I can think of right off the top of my head including several that make you feel foolish.
Oh yeah, I forgot, you're doing that seme thingy. How do you do that again?

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Oh yeah, I forgot, you're doing that seme thingy. How do you do that again?
Usually I eat large quantities of beans, eggs and some wasabi and surround myself with entoxicating fumes....... :wink:

I am taught in my case doesn't mean I actually can pull it off correctly:silly:

[mark]

and he steps slightly to the right and hits you do,......
Oh yeah, I forgot, you're doing that seme thingy. How do you do that again?
You obviously disagree whith what was said. Was is the "lift the front leg up", "fumikomi as late as possible", the "maintaining seme all the time" or something else?

[Kingofmyrrh]

You obviously disagree whith what was said. Was is the "lift the front leg up", "fumikomi as late as possible", the "maintaining seme all the time" or something else?
I suspect that it might be something to do with the fact that the shinai I am currently using has lasted longer than Rurouni Kenshin's kendo career up to now (and I break a lot of shinais!). Advising somebody to maintain seme, and then admitting that you can't do it yourself correctly in your next post does not instill a great deal of confidence in me.
But I could be wrong!

[Ignatz]

That's why you are the King.

[Sepiraph]

I suspect that it might be something to do with the fact that the shinai I am currently using has lasted longer than Rurouni Kenshin's kendo career up to now (and I break a lot of shinais!). Advising somebody to maintain seme, and then admitting that you can't do it yourself correctly in your next post does not instill a great deal of confidence in me.
But I could be wrong!

It amazes me that RK is even giving advice in the first place.