Jodan center

[JSchmidt]

With my move to New Zealand, I 'lost' my jodan teachers and feel that I'm struggling somewhat, which is also aggrevated by long working hours, only enabling me to practice once a week.
Technicly, I know what to work (cutting men :)), but what really seems to suffering most, is the mental aspect of doing jodan.
Does anyone have any good tips on what to work on and also visualization techniques for controlling center and doing 'proper' seme from jodan?.

Cheers,

Jakob

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
With my move to New Zealand, I 'lost' my jodan teachers and feel that I'm struggling somewhat, which is also aggrevated by long working hours, only enabling me to practice once a week.
Technicly, I know what to work (cutting men :)), but what really seems to suffering most, is the mental aspect of doing jodan.
Does anyone have any good tips on what to work on and also visualization techniques for controlling center and doing 'proper' seme from jodan?.

Cheers,

Jakob

Fighting from jodan is a high level technique. I am not saying that you should not practice it though.

Seme while in jodan is tricky and is more about confidence and mental strength than just a movement of the body or part of it.

Keep training in jodan and when you are a couple of dan grades higher you may develop the remainder.

[Steve]

The basic component of Jodan seme is aggression. A "defensive" jodan just doesn't work, and is really quite dumb.

You need to be aggressive, and the opponent needs to "fear" your aggressiveness. You should be the one who initiates everything. The book "Fundamental Kendo" by the AJKF states that success of Jodan waza is dependent on a spiritual component more than a physical one.

You need to show a fearlessness in jodan. A fearlessness of being hit, and a fearlessness of attacking. That is the essence of Jodan seme. If you can (honestly) do that, your opponent will crumble and your suki will appear.

hope this helps even a small amount. PM me Jschmidt, and maybe we can discuss drills, waza, etc... if your interested. I'll try to help you, and you can help me. Two brains are better than one.

[neo_dragon_kai]

i'm a begining, being training for almost a year now, i think i'm farely sucessful. i want to do jodan, i've always wanted to do it
since hte first day i did keiko. what should i do to prepare. i know i'm not supposed to play with non-chudan forms until at least 1-dan, i'm just wondering about what to prepare.

on jodan been only agressive, isn't first kata's jodan defensive?

[JSchmidt]

Preparing for jodan?..hmm..get better at using mainly left hand when cutting.
Lots of katate-suburi is good, but I don't advocate doing it with a shinai, as stopping the cut really strains the wrist and can be a good shortcut to getting RSI...or if you use a shinai, hold it further up the tsuka. I had one of those funky weight-tools with a handle on the end that let me build up left forearm strength easily, without straining the wrist.
Also, work on judging distance. In chudan, most people are used to judging distance with the shinai, which is obviously not applicable to jodan and is one of your more important tools (controlling the distance).

As for kata no.1, as both sides uses jodan, I guess you could call it defensive, although shidachi pressures uchidachi into cutting first. Ai-jodan is a completly different kettle of fish compared to jodan-vs-chudan, though.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by neo_dragon_kai
i'm a begining, being training for almost a year now, i think i'm farely sucessful. i want to do jodan, i've always wanted to do it
since hte first day i did keiko. what should i do to prepare.
Train another 5 years of chudan.

[satoshi]

I guess the standard teaching is to practice chudan up to a sufficient level before even venturing into jodan, or any other style. This, however, is assuming that one start at a young age and have a kendo career of 40-50 years. If a person starts kendo in their late 20s or 30s and yet has a strong desire to try out jodan, I tend to think that it is beneficial to give an opportunity to practice jodan alongside chudan. In fact I feel that it is important for anybody to study jodan and other kamae styles at one point. Of course, you would need someone who can at least instruct the basic level of jodan.

[Hongsermeier]

satoshi... you have hit upon one of the great kendo problems. Finding a good sensei who teaches jodan, nito or other kamae styles. :cross_eye

[etherknot]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
I know what to work (cutting men :)), but what really seems to suffering most, is the mental aspect of doing jodan.
Does anyone have any good tips on what to work on and also visualization techniques for controlling center and doing 'proper' seme from jodan?.


I was discussing the World Naginata Championships with my sensei at practice today (see upcoming posts in Naginata forum later). Jodan was brought up (ha ha). Apperantly there is also another form of jodan in naginata that I was unaware of. But that's not what I'm posting about. :)

Our discussion on jodan was mostly about how it is a more advanced position. And thusly frowned upon in testing or formal shiai because it "says that you think you are so good that you are willing to give up your defense". I thought about this for a moment and I realized what he was saying. Yes we all know jodan is impressive, cool and can freak people out. But the fact that you are committed to taking up such a position, that you are so very very sure about it and so confident that you don't need to defend yourself. Well, that takes balls. And I guess that is one of the elements of seme for that position.

I'd like to ask of you though this, how do you judge maai with jodan in kendo? Obviously you start in chudan but after that how do you know if you are too far away or not?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by etherknot
I'd like to ask of you though this, how do you judge maai with jodan in kendo? Obviously you start in chudan but after that how do you know if you are too far away or not?
That would be one of the skills you need for jodan. Also creating openings without being able to manipulate the opponent's shinai is a bit of a problem. Which is why people should wait until they understand chudan reasonably well before switching to a different kamae.

[JSchmidt]

" Obviously you start in chudan but after that how do you know if you are too far away or not?"

Actually, that's one of the great lessons to be learned from jodan...you do it by taking the whole person (opponent) in and judging distance that way. You can, of course (and should) learn that from chudan, but jodan forces you to learn it rather more quickly.

Jakob (Being one those late-starters, Satoshi wrote about)

P.S. Hi Satoshi :)

[etherknot]

Neat. I don't think I'll be doing any amount of jodan anytime soon. I was just curious! Good stuff to know though.

[satoshi]

Hi Jakob! Have you tried practicing to cut with both hands (moro te) as opposed to the standard one-handed (kata te) techniques? I know some jodan people intentionally practice without letting their right hand go. You of course lose the most attractive advantage of jodan but this way you have to be mentally stronger and create pressure (seme) before cutting.

[JSchmidt]

Hmm..I only do moro te in kihon, not in ji-geiko.
In any case, it appeared that my biggest problem was (as discussed in the emails), my posture and cutting from too high.
Once I corrected my posture, my pressure improved, making the rest easier.
Nevertheless, your suggestion does seem worthwhile trying, as there's still a long way to go.

Jakob

[Steve]

i tend to practice a lot of morote strikes along with katate strikes. Morote strikes come very naturally out "faking" from jodan. also, jodan kara uchiotoshi waza are morote strikes, so its important to practice them. They also help remove "predictability" from Jodan.

Oh, I'm one of those "late starters" as well.

Steve.

[Inouye02]

so what did you guys think about Tenken's jodan at the wkc ? or Moocows nito ryu ?

[James]

As far as technique goes, I'm not experienced enough in those techniques to comment, but as a strategic spoiler to the other teams they really did their job.
Also worked for the British guy, Dave Bell, against the US team (draw).

[Nishi]

1)Whats the best way to develop tenouchi katate-waza, when i miss men, i cut through to the top of the mune almost, and destroy my kamae.

2)Does jodan have any unique oji-waza to counter tsuki and left-kote while in jodan-no-kamae?

3) Does jodan favor taller or shorter people?

[JSchmidt]

1. Don't miss:). That's one of the reason that jodan is a 1-cut kamae. Your kamae isn't destroyed as you are no longer in the kamae. If you are still in front (or not in tsubazeria) you will be hit. You *have* to either close in or go through after a cut.
When you are cutting from jodan, you commit everything...it is truely a all or nothing kamae.
2. Sort of. Against kote, you can either do nuki-waza, or debana. Against tsuki, you do debana and make sure that your left hand gets in the center and knocks the tsuki off. Best defence against both is controlling the distance.
3. As with kendo in general, it favours taller people (didnt stop me from picking up jodan, though :))...Jodan has the added bonus of moving the kote to men-distance, where the kote is normally the preferred target on taller people.

Jakob

[Steve]

1. Don't miss:). That's one of the reason that jodan is a 1-cut kamae. Your kamae isn't destroyed as you are no longer in the kamae. If you are still in front (or not in tsubazeria) you will be hit. You *have* to either close in or go through after a cut.
When you are cutting from jodan, you commit everything...it is truely a all or nothing kamae.
2. Sort of. Against kote, you can either do nuki-waza, or debana. Against tsuki, you do debana and make sure that your left hand gets in the center and knocks the tsuki off. Best defence against both is controlling the distance.
3. As with kendo in general, it favours taller people (didnt stop me from picking up jodan, though :))...Jodan has the added bonus of moving the kote to men-distance, where the kote is normally the preferred target on taller people.

Jakob
1) If you miss (ie touch nothing but air!) during a katate strike, you're in trouble. Best bet is to literally RUN at your opponent. Although, after a failed strike (ie, just miss the target, or it wasn't worth a point), many people bring the shinai up above they're men horizontally. From this position, you can switch to Age-To and strike again, reassume Jodan, or close in on your opponent.
Check out the movie clip i posted on our club website: http://www.halifaxkendo.org\kamae.html scroll down to the Jodan section and click on the movie link. Its a clip of Yamamoto Sensei performing option #2 i describe above.

2) There are a number of waza you can do for this. As Jakob says you can do nuki waza, but there are also morote harai waza. Against (Hidari) Kote, move your shinai down/left along the "jodan angle" to intercept the kote attack, then morote Hiki-men or Men if your fast. Tsuki, bring your hands to the center and push the incoming tsuki strike down, then morote men (or hiki men). There are similar methods for either Do as well. I'll scan some pics of these and post up a link to them. They're from a book i have.

3) Height is definately a physical advantage for Jodan, but Jodan is considered to be more of a kokoro no kamae...ie success is more dependent on the persons attitude or mindset than physical "prowess". So, if you develop a really intense seme and fighting spirit, that will more than compensate for a height difference.

[Nishi]

4) When an opponent tries to cut my hidari-kote while in jodan, i quickily release the shinai, swing my left hand low(out of the way), and cut katate-men with my right hand...is this acceptable?

5)Is kirikeishi done the same?

6)Whats your personal reason for moving to jodan?

7)Ive been playing with jodan a bit this year, i fence chudan, but in certain bouts i try a few cuts from jodan. Is acceptable to move in and out of jodan?

[Steve]

4) When an opponent tries to cut my hidari-kote while in jodan, i quickily release the shinai, swing my left hand low(out of the way), and cut katate-men with my right hand...is this acceptable?

5)Is kirikeishi done the same?

6)Whats your personal reason for moving to jodan?

7)Ive been playing with jodan a bit this year, i fence chudan, but in certain bouts i try a few cuts from jodan. Is acceptable to move in and out of jodan?

Migi Katate waza are acceptable, but the strike must be strong. Also, if somebody is going for your hidari kote, and you move it out of the way, you run the risk of them hitting the side of your head. ouch!

I do kirikaeshi the same as i would from chudan, but occasionally i'll try katate kirikaeshi

My reason? Its difficult, and different. I was intrigued by it the first time i saw it, and just knew that i wanted to learn it.

I used to switch between the two frequently during a match. The occasional chudan kara katate waza is perfectly fine, but if you are goign to practice Jodan....practice Jodan. I was told by a Sensei here in Canada that " Its great that you are interested in Jodan, but you have to make a choice here and now. Either you're going to practice Jodan with 100% commitment, or you're going to stick with Chudan. To be effective in either, you have to choose."

So, if you're going to learn Jodan...use Jodan. If your Jodan gets weak or you're in a "slump", then go back to Chudan and refresh your basics. Otherwise, Jodan must be a 100% commitment.

[Old Warrior]

"So, if you're going to learn Jodan...use Jodan. If your Jodan gets weak or you're in a "slump", then go back to Chudan and refresh your basics. Otherwise, Jodan must be a 100% commitment."

I guess the same advice goes for Nito?

One of the difficulties/challenges is to develope a Nito version for what everyone else is doing in unison.

[JSchmidt]

4) When an opponent tries to cut my hidari-kote while in jodan, i quickily release the shinai, swing my left hand low(out of the way), and cut katate-men with my right hand...is this acceptable?

5)Is kirikeishi done the same?

6)Whats your personal reason for moving to jodan?

7)Ive been playing with jodan a bit this year, i fence chudan, but in certain bouts i try a few cuts from jodan. Is acceptable to move in and out of jodan?


4: As mentioned in another thread, the cut will have to perfect...most people when cutting with right hand only, just end up clubbing, not cutting.

5. I do the shomen cuts from jodan and the sayu-men morote...with opposite footwork...occasionally I also do the shomen cuts morote and occasionally everything katate.

6. It appealed to me!. It actually started with one of my sempais suggesting I should do more katate suburi to correct a bad habit with my right shoulder. I fooled around a bit with jodan, after which I was told that I should change to jodan. I was then also told that if I changed, I should stick with it...no half measures...and that I had to do it for at least 4 years. I still practice chudan (As you need to keep developing that side of it as well), but my main focus is on jodan.
I disagree with changing if you are in a slump..In my opinion, it's working through those slumps, that makes you improve/stronger.
I would strongly suggest that you get a teacher, before you change. After I moved to NZ, with no access to people experienced with jodan, it has been a struggle and I picked up some major bad habits that took me a while to realise.
Further, if you really are going to do jodan, forget about oji, migi, etc waza for at least 1 year and just focus on cutting men.

7. The polite way to go about it, is to start with chudan. After x-amount of time, bow and say 'onegai-shimasu' and change to jodan and you stay there for the remainder of the fight.
If you are practicing with people you know well, you can do as you want, but I consider any change back from jodan to chudan a sign of mental weakness.
(Although if the person you are practicing withis junior and is obviously not learning anything from practicing against your jodan, change back)

Jakob

[Nishi]

Thanx for the advice on jodan guys....i could never commit fulltime to jodan as i dont, and will not have access to an instructor (although i would enjoy the oppurtunity)...i can use the information provided here in a couple of areas in my kendo...first being when i actually fence somebody else in jodan, and secondly, after hikimen i find myself in jodan(ish) kamae for a short period, it is good to know my options from here.

Do you fumikomi or suriashi when cutting men or kote, is there any nidan- waza?

[JSchmidt]

Thanx for the advice on jodan guys....i could never commit fulltime to jodan as i dont, and will not have access to an instructor (although i would enjoy the oppurtunity)...i can use the information provided here in a couple of areas in my kendo...first being when i actually fence somebody else in jodan, and secondly, after hikimen i find myself in jodan(ish) kamae for a short period, it is good to know my options from here.

Do you fumikomi or suriashi when cutting men or kote, is there any nidan- waza?

The way I've been taught hiki-waza, you should only be in jodan a very short time after cutting (use the momentum of the arms to pull you backwards) and then pull down into chudan, so you are ready to respond. (That is, unless your kamae is jodan in which case you keep the arms up)..YMMV.

Fumikomi, followed by suriashi when cutting.
Nidan-waza exists, but aren't all that practical. They're still good in kihon to teach distance and footwork. (usually morote)...Jodan is pretty much solely a one-cut kamae.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

The way I've been taught hiki-waza...
you should only be in jodan a very short time after cutting (use the momentum of the arms to pull you backwards) and then pull down into chudan, so you are ready to respond. (That is, unless your kamae is jodan in which case you keep the arms up)..YMMV.

You should maintain jodan until you get back far enough to avoid a counter-attack, otherwise you are providing an opening for your opponent.

Nidan-waza exists, but aren't all that practical.

True for most people but I've seen video of jodan guys at the all-Japans doing kote-men as fast or faster than I can do it two-handed.

[Steve]

Here is a link to an html page from our club website (not published in general yet) on some Jodan Kara Waza. Most of them are morote waza except for the debana waza listed. This does not include any of the "fakes" listed in the book, those will come later.

I'll try and put up some very rough translations later that were done by a friend of mine. If anyone who reads Japanese would like to translate them fully / properly let me know and I'll post your translations on the page.

http://www.halifaxkendo.org\jodanwaza.html

Steve.

[Nishi]

Thats a handy link Steve cheers, it will definatley come in handy when i find myself in jodan....I think alot of "chudan fighter" strike hikimen and withdraw (showing zanshin), and feel their only option might be men from jodan if they are pursued, this thread is creating options for us fencers who find themselves in jodan.

We do hikimen as you described Niel, and hold jodan until the obvious counter attack chances are gone. Although i know many schools teach their students to really throw their arms back over their head and race away almost trying to escape their opponent. I feel that there should be an bit of speed here, but not at the expense of proper jodan kamae.

Any thoughts?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I feel that there should be an bit of speed here, but not at the expense of proper jodan kamae.

Speed over proper kamae in this case, although ideally both.

[Nishi]

Tried jodan over the week in a few random bouts again and came up with a few thoughts....might be entertaining for you experienced jodan guys :lick:

First, my "men" is still a bit stiff and restricts me from really getting my kote up high, i imagine, and have noticed jodan players have really soft broken in bogu, any connection here?

Second, at 5' 7" I am too short for this kamae, or inexperienced, or both :D

Third, I find myself vulnerable in jodan for (left)kote, tsuki, doh, (oji) suriages and kiashis, I felt pressured because i new the options from chudan...(i seme'd myself...lol!). Very aggresive chudan players appear to destroy jodan kamae nicely.

Finally, I did enjoy the extra distance I cut from, took me a while to find it though...usually from chudan i really have to enter and commit myself to make up the distance (hieght related usually), but from jodan, if i cut just a tad bit sooner than im used to, i could cut, and still be at a
safe(ish) distance, then i pushed forward (all in one motion of course).

Correct me please....

[JSchmidt]

Yups, welcome to jodan :).
Focus on two things: Distance and cutting men...ignore that you are getting hit, as you will be hit a lot. Don't take it as 'defeat', but just ignore it.
Also, you have to do your kihon in jodan...jodan is pretty much 'do or do not, there is not try'.
If they are hitting your do (especially), then you are far too close...it's just about the hardest target to hit on a jodan player.
If the chudan player moves in, either attack, or accept the hit...when you move in, you have to attack.

Jakob

[Steve]

Tried jodan over the week in a few random bouts again and came up with a few thoughts....might be entertaining for you experienced jodan guys :lick:

First, my "men" is still a bit stiff and restricts me from really getting my kote up high, i imagine, and have noticed jodan players have really soft broken in bogu, any connection here?

Second, at 5' 7" I am too short for this kamae, or inexperienced, or both :D

Third, I find myself vulnerable in jodan for (left)kote, tsuki, doh, (oji) suriages and kiashis, I felt pressured because i new the options from chudan...(i seme'd myself...lol!). Very aggresive chudan players appear to destroy jodan kamae nicely.

...snippit....

Correct me please....

As for your men, just start working it in by hand if its too stiff. I think most Jodan players (well, the good ones anyway) have really broken in bogu cause they've just been doing kendo for sooo long!

Height IS an advantage in Jodan, but not required. Jodan is more of a "kokoro no kamae" than anything. Its success depends more on your state of mind, and your mental attitude than physical prowess.

The left kote and tsuki are the standard "text-book" targets against Jodan. As Jakob said above, YOU MUST NOTR FEAR BEING HIT.... especially by Tsuki.

If you're getting hit on your do (regular do or Gyaku do?) then you are WAY to close. Kaeshi waza against Jodan is something you'll have to learn to deal with to. Jodan has a lot more "deception" to it than many might think. A quote from "Fundamental Kendo" by the AJKF on Jodan:

If you are going to hit men, first aim for the kote. If you are going to hit kote, first aim for the men.

What they're getting at is that anybody, regardless of skill level, will eventually be able to ccounter your strike (say men) if it always looks like a men. Make them think its something else, and as their kamae changes according to what they think is coming, strike something else. "Fakes" IMO are one of the keys to a good Jodan.

[Steve]

As a side note, i have added more scans on the Jodan portion of our club website. They're taken from the "red book" listed in our club library, which i bought from E-Bogu.com. They call it Kendo Seminar for Advanced, but i don't think thats the exact title.

I've added scans showing Kihon Jodan waza, as well as basic kamae, footwork, katate men, katate kote, and a section on "fakes".

I'll try and add a section of basic translations, or rather very rough translations soon. A friend of mine translated the pages for me, but i only wrote them down in point form from memory. If anyone would like to do some proper translating ;) let me know.

http://www.halifaxkendo.org\jodanwaza.html

Steve.

[moocow65]

my advice for starting jodan:
1) you better have a really good understanding of seme or you'll suck. too many times have i seen "jodan" kenshi just stand there and swing the shinai. i did not see any seme at all. you only get one chance of striking when you're doing jodan. it's not like seigan where you can quickly recover and strike again. that's why seme is so important. you gotta create the opening first before striking, instead of just swinging and hoping you'll hit it by luck........ which shouldn't count as an ippon anways.

2) you better be physically capable of swinging a shinai with one hand. i have seen some SLOW jodan kenshi with absolutely no control. train your arms and wrists for at least a couple of months before even practicing jodan at the dojo. do katate suburi or other excercises that will strengthen your arms.

3) as my sensei told me when i started nito, who by the way has a very strong jodan, a.k.a. Tenken's Daddy, "kakugo shiro." which basically means "prepare yourself to sacrifice your seigan for nito." it's either one or the other. you can't practice both at the same time. don't do 50% seigan and 50% jodan. when you do keiko, it's gotta be jodan at all times.

4) you gotta believe that your kamae, in this case jodan, is the strongest kamae of all the kamae. gotta think to yourself that jodan is better than seigan, nito, hasso, etc.

just be really dedicated, watch videos, and don't get frustrated.

[JSchmidt]

my advice for starting jodan:


2) you better be physically capable of swinging a shinai with one hand. i have seen some SLOW jodan kenshi with absolutely no control. train your arms and wrists for at least a couple of months before even practicing jodan at the dojo. do katate suburi or other excercises that will strengthen your arms.
.

I didn't do much specific exercise prior, but after I started, I did a lot of katate-kirikaeshi. It hurt like hell, but it did the trick.

Otherwise, very sound advice..In hindsight, I wish my seme would have been better before I started jodan.

Jakob

[Nishi]

IKF regulations...

d. TSUKI (throat). The TSUKI-TARE (throat flap on the
MEN) and the breast section of the DO when JODAN-NO KAMAE
and NITO-NO-KAMAE are used.

I didnt know you guys could be struck by mune-tsuki, i though that thrust was extinct, ive always gone after tsuki-tare. Have these regulations been changed?


I posted a bigger version including all kamae on the shiai revision thread.

[Steve]

IKF regulations...

I didnt know you guys could be struck by mune-tsuki, i though that thrust was extinct, ive always gone after tsuki-tare. Have these regulations been changed?


That version of Tsuki was eliminated. You must be reading an old version of the regulations. It was considered far to easy for people to hit, and it discouraged many people from using Jodan no Kamae.

Have you ever tried to hit a Tsuki on somebody's Do? Try it, its REALLY easy to hit, and much less likely to have your shinai "slip" off.

[Nishi]

Whats this all about.....

(from ikf regulations) ........although these are dated

Article 17. YUKO DATOTSU is defined as the accurate striking
or thrusting made to DATOTSU spots with the SHINAI at its
DATOTSU-BU edge with KIAI
(spirit and positive voice), the right posture, and ZANSHIN
(mental and physical alertness against the opponents attack;
positive follow through of attack and strike),
a. One handed DATOTSU and DATOTSU in retreat, however,
must be executed after a clear positive strike.
b. GO-NO-WAZA (DATOTSU countering an opponent's DATOTSU)
as a counter or parry to TSUBA-ZERIAI (when both opponents
establish contact with TSUBA) must be clear and precise.

The converstation started at class tonight about removing a hand after a yuko datotsu (valid) as apposed to removing a hand from the shinai before the strike (not valid) see bold type. Some clever guy at my dojo said how does this support katate-waza, jodan, and nito kamaes....

We're sure we are unclear on the guidelines, or mabye its dated as in past posts, some input please!

[Steve]

...snip...

The converstation started at class tonight about removing a hand after a yuko datotsu (valid) as apposed to removing a hand from the shinai before the strike (not valid) see bold type. Some clever guy at my dojo said how does this support katate-waza, jodan, and nito kamaes....

We're sure we are unclear on the guidelines, or mabye its dated as in past posts, some input please!

I'm not positive here, but i think its just worded in bad english. I believe what the rules were trying to convey was that a katate datotsu or a backward (hiki waza) datotsu are considerd yuko only if they are done in a very strong manner. Lots of kiai, strong follow-through / zanshin...the whole bit.

Steve

[Nishi]

I was asked the other day about jodan shinsa....can you do jodan in your gradings, or to a certain level are you required to use chudan. If you can use jodan does there need to be jodan sensei present....whats the deal here??

[Danny Boy]

I was asked the other day about jodan shinsa....can you do jodan in your gradings, or to a certain level are you required to use chudan. If you can use jodan does there need to be jodan sensei present....whats the deal here??

Heres what i've been told.
You do Chudan untill you're 7th dan, then you can start using other kamae.
People that do Jodan before they hit 7th dan do it, because they cant do chudan.
If you're going for a grading before 7th dan and you use Jodan, you fail instantly.
One of the GB team members have been told to do chudan for his 5th dan grading, because if he did Jodan he'd fail.

Dont flame me, im telling you what i've been told.

[JSchmidt]

I was asked the other day about jodan shinsa....can you do jodan in your gradings, or to a certain level are you required to use chudan. If you can use jodan does there need to be jodan sensei present....whats the deal here??

You *can*, but you'll have to be shit-hot to pull it off...and most likely, any place outside Japan, you would fail instantly :).

Jakob

[Hai_hai]

my advice for starting jodan:
...2) you better be physically capable of swinging a shinai with one hand. i have seen some SLOW jodan kenshi with absolutely no control. train your arms and wrists for at least a couple of months before even practicing jodan at the dojo. do katate suburi or other excercises that will strengthen your arms...

Although the bicep, tricep, and forearm are instrumental in swining the shinai, the arms mainly hold the shinai. It is your shoulder muscles that are mainly involved in raising the shinai and your back muscles to bring the shinai down. So, one would also want to train the deltoids and lats.
I don't do kendo anymore but I do know a certain amount of physiology with a degree from the school of hard knocks.

[Steve]

You *can*, but you'll have to be shit-hot to pull it off...and most likely, any place outside Japan, you would fail instantly :).

Jakob

I've heard that you can use other kamae during grading, but you have to be good. I'd say you should just ask your / a sensei first.

[Nishi]

Well that raises a bit of an issue... in order to pursue jodan you must commit...and in at least three threads now the same theme has risen...."if you do jodan then you do jodan" no half measures, and like someone on another thread said..."prepare to sacrifice chudan for your new kamae" (or something like that)....

Excpet when grading? I have a bit of experience grading now... i dont need to remind anyone how much effort goes into preparing for a grading...If you do jodan then its all or nothing...unless your grading, its a paradox to me that dosnt make sence, of course if someone steps forward and says..."no you can use any kamae" this may shed more light on the issue.. but so far we've only got..."ive heard", "most likely", and " ive been told"..... :confused:

Has anybody out there ever tested in "Jodan"?

[Danny Boy]

Well that raises a bit of an issue... in order to pursue jodan you must commit...and in at least three threads now the same theme has risen...."if you do jodan then you do jodan" no half measures, and like someone on another thread said..."prepare to sacrifice chudan for your new kamae" (or something like that)....

Excpet when grading? I have a bit of experience grading now... i dont need to remind anyone how much effort goes into preparing for a grading...If you do jodan then its all or nothing...unless your grading, its a paradox to me that dosnt make sence, of course if someone steps forward and says..."no you can use any kamae" this may shed more light on the issue.. but so far we've only got..."ive heard", "most likely", and " ive been told"..... :confused:

Has anybody out there ever tested in "Jodan"?

I think that you're asking the right question in the wrong place, there is a limited number of experianced kendoka (albeit from what i see the experianced kendoka that read these forums are dedicated and willing to share their knowledge, for which i am thankful) attending these forums. I would suggest talking to Dave Bell or Mr. Howell ot your sensei next time you see them.

[Nishi]

Possibly correct Danny Boy...i'll definatley ask when i see him next. Now that i think about ive never seen anyone test with anything other than chudan-no-kamae....except that guy doing nito from national geographic's "kendo's gruelling challenge"

Food for thought hu...

[Steve]

Possibly correct Danny Boy...i'll definatley ask when i see him next. Now that i think about ive never seen anyone test with anything other than chudan-no-kamae....except that guy doing nito from national geographic's "kendo's gruelling challenge"

Food for thought hu...

I can say that one of Team Canada's current members, Matthew Raymond ( who does Nito Ryu), received his 5th Dan last december, and he used Nito during his grading. He passed with flying colours, no automatic fails. I'll ask a few sensei, or even Raymond Sensei himself to see what the opinion is on alternate kamae during grading is.

Steve.

[lwegerich]

on jodan been only agressive, isn't first kata's jodan defensive?

I don't think so. Being aggressive (having much seme) is not alone a question of your posture. It's sort of a "state of mind" which "radiates" to your environment.

When doing kata I concentrate on just one thought while going into kamae. Typical one is "Now you (=the opponent) are going to die."

Sounds silly but it makes a huge difference compared to what happens when I'm thinking "Wow, what am I going to eat tonight?"

BTW I think "aggression" is the wrong term because aggression has a strong aspect of destruction and is related to feelings of hate and / or anger. These feelings are pretty much useless in budo, they distract your mind and weakens you.

I prefer the using terms like "seme", "pressure", "being determined", "focused". I think you aleady got it.

[Steve]

Both of the Jodan kamae (Migi and Hidari) are aggressive postures as well as their variants (Hasso and Age-to). But that doesn't mean that there doesn't exist "defensive" waza. The first kata is a great example of this. The Shidachi performs a Jodan kara nuki men vs the uchidachi's men strike. harai, uchiotoshi, debanna, nuki, and "misete" waza are all part of a Kendoka's arsenal while using Jodan no Kamae.

As for the term aggressive, i think most people when reading the word in a Kendo context don't associate aggression with hate or destruction, but that it implies "forward thinking". Meaning you are the one who initiates attacks, or that you are the one supressing the opponent physically, mentally , and spiritually. I guess its just a "shortcut" term that everyone writes, with the knowledge that it implies all of those great concepts like seme, pressure, determined, focused, etc...

[Neil Gendzwill]

But that doesn't mean that there doesn't exist "defensive" waza. The first kata is a great example of this.
I think you're misunderstanding the kata. Shidachi isn't reacting to anything. His pressure causes uchidachi to attack, then he takes advantage of it. Completely different thing, and basically the essence of jodan - pressure your opponent into panicking, then exploit it. That's why you can't do jodan properly unless you understand seme.

[Steve]

I think you're misunderstanding the kata. Shidachi isn't reacting to anything. His pressure causes uchidachi to attack, then he takes advantage of it. Completely different thing, and basically the essence of jodan - pressure your opponent into panicking, then exploit it. That's why you can't do jodan properly unless you understand seme.

A bit off-topic...

wow, you're right. i guess i don't understand the kata. Gimme 30 more years or so! :wink:

I always thought that the uchidachi attacks and shidachi defends. My understanding and interpretation was that the uchidachi controls everything about the kata from the timing, speed, and his opponent. The shidachi was simply responding to the uchidachi's lead. in the case you just pointed out, its not the uchidachi who "controls" the kata per se, but the shidachi. Is this the mentality behind all of the kata? If so, the kata take on a whole new meaning.

What about kata #6? I thought that one was a demonstration of the shidachi using pressure to control uchidachi (forcing uchidachi to come out of Jodan, back into chudan) and force him to do something he's not ready for (forcing a small kote strike). Is this wrong?

Thanks Neil!

[Neil Gendzwill]

I always thought that the uchidachi attacks and shidachi defends. My understanding and interpretation was that the uchidachi controls everything about the kata from the timing, speed, and his opponent.
From a performance standpoint, the control is in uchidachi's hands. Thats because that's the "teacher" side. For beginners its very useful to have someone timing the kata that way. But conceptually, shidachi drives it because its his pressure that causes uchidachi to attack in each case. Consider shinai kendo - if all you ever do is react to the opponent, you're going to lose. In the case of debana kote, how can you beat an attack that's already started, even when you're not as fast as the opponent? The answer is, you can't unless you are ready and know he's coming. So you make some pressure so that you break his kamae, and then he attacks somewhere, which you exploit.


What about kata #6? I thought that one was a demonstration of the shidachi using pressure to control uchidachi (forcing uchidachi to come out of Jodan, back into chudan) and force him to do something he's not ready for (forcing a small kote strike). Is this wrong?

Exactly right, #6 is a little more obvious. As shidachi comes up, you see the pressure driving uchidachi back into jodan and as shidachi presses forward, down into chudan. Pressure, pressure, pressure, relax a little bit... he thinks he has an opening for kote, but not really. Some people refer to this as "pulling" seme, as opposed to the more common "pushing" seme. If you've ever played a high-ranking sensei you know what I mean. It seems like he always knows what you are going to do before you do - that's because he is controlling what you do by pulling you into making attacks that you think are your own choices.

[Steve]

awesome. Thanks Neil! I love learnig new things in Kendo. I see the Kata in a whole new light now...this is great.

[lwegerich]

I think you're misunderstanding the kata. Shidachi isn't reacting to anything. His pressure causes uchidachi to attack, then he takes advantage of it.

Very interesting point. As said before this gives kata a new meaning. Shidachi looks quite "crafty" (*) in "pretending to follow" uchidachi and then take advantage of it.

From my experience in Karate there is a sort of "coherence" or "glue" between two fighters. When experienced you can "lead" your opponent through this "mental glue" and make him think he is leading the whole thing. Then, at the right moment you are the one who "disrupt" the coherence at your own will. Typically this is the surprise you need to overcome the opponent and score.

Never experienced it in Kendo but I strongly believe it's there. I'm doing Kendo for one year now and did Karate for 15 years. The knees, you know... ;)

(*) As you noticed I'm not a native speaker so some terms might sound funny and / or inappropriate.

[Steve]

Well, as far as experiencing seme from another Kendoka...I have experienced it against one of the Sensei here in Canada. Well, I've experienced it a lot from many Sensei her in Canada, but this was the fisrt time.

As soon as we stood up from sonkyo to begin keiko, you could just feel his Kensen pushing against my Tsuki...and he wasn't even moving. Its so disconcerting that you just have to attack or move to try and break free of it. Thats when they nail you.

I tried a small men against him, and *before i got near him* he hit me with a kote-men-yokomen combination!! I learned afterwards that this Sensei used to do Nito, so he throws in katate strikes from time to time. Normally they're quite rare from chudan based Kendo.

After he used the same three hit combination against me about 3 times, he let me hit him a bit.

Hard to explain what seme is exactly, but you'll know it when you feel it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Shidachi looks quite "crafty" (*) in "pretending to follow" uchidachi and then take advantage of it.

Sorry, you're misunderstanding me. Shidachi isn't pretending to follow uchidachi. You have to seperate the mechanics of doing the kata from the bunkai (to use a karate word). The person who is taking the uchidachi side leads and the other follows, because that side is the teaching side and because it is necessary to have someone driving the mechanics of getting through the kata. But the underlying reasons for why the players take their actions is different. In #1 for example, certainly it is not reasonable to suppose that uchidachi attacks because he waited for a reasonable pause after taking 3 steps. We're fighting here, not dancing. He attacks because he thinks he has a chance, and he thinks he has a chance because shidachi invited him to attack. Anybody who's messed with jodan in the slightest has used the principles in this kata - threaten the opponent a little, present the kote as a nice juicy target, then nuke men if they fall for it. To continue with #1 as an example, after shidachi cuts, why does he press forward into jodan? Beginners play it as if uchidachi is retreating and shidachi is following. But actually uchidachi retreats because shidachi is applying pressure again. As shidachi, you should strive to have that feeling of pressure to give uchidachi a reason to move back.

In the beginning, everyone is just trying to remember which foot goes where and hoping not to hit the other guy. But if this is all there ever is to kata, it would be pretty boring. As you advance you will find that you try to make it a fight. If I do kata with my sensei, it feels for all the world like I'm in a fight. Especially #1 - if I'm not on my toes as shidachi, I will get cut.

Wordy and bored on a Sunday morning...

[Revenir]

To continue with #1 as an example, after shidachi cuts, why does he press forward into jodan? Beginners play it as if uchidachi is retreating and shidachi is following. But actually uchidachi retreats because shidachi is applying pressure again. As shidachi, you should strive to have that feeling of pressure to give uchidachi a reason to move back.

Hmm... I had my first kata lesson last week. And my sensei told us and emphasized, whilst demonstrating, that the shidachi was 'pushing' the uchidachi back. After nuki-men, the uchidachi takes a step back and the shidachi brings the... um, kensen? (not very good with the terms) to the uchidachi's eye level to keep the pressure on. I probably wouldn't have understood it at all if my sensei didn't say that... I feel lucky to have good sensei =)

[Nishi]

Well i had a little jodan lesson the other week from one of my teachers...and have been told if i want to persue it, then i should..Of course this also means i'll be teaching myself as there are no jodan teachers where im going, i suppose there are none hear either though...(high level in my area that is).

We worked on tenouchi from katate waza...and i was told to "punch out" at my opponent at the end of my cut, and not allow my wrist to "break", meaning, my wrist shouldnt bend pointing my fist to the floor..this is considered a loss of control..and i would be helpless but to run into my opponent for saftey.

Also i was amazed at how straight the feet should be like in chudan, both forward...like a mirror image. You always see jodan kenshi with that back foot turned out slightly...its no wonder fumikomi is so difficult, from an incorrect base.

And finally we talked about aprroach. I was told i should enter my ma'ai strongly without fear, but remain relativley still and make my small movments felt strongly, as apposed to the foot stamping and spooking you sometimes see.

It really was an eye opening experience....

[Steve]

Well i had a little jodan lesson the other week from one of my teachers...and have been told if i want to persue it, then i should..Of course this also means i'll be teaching myself as there are no jodan teachers where im going, i suppose there are none hear either though...(high level in my area that is).

We worked on tenouchi from katate waza...and i was told to "punch out" at my opponent at the end of my cut, and not allow my wrist to "break", meaning, my wrist shouldnt bend pointing my fist to the floor..this is considered a loss of control..and i would be helpless but to run into my opponent for saftey.

Also i was amazed at how straight the feet should be like in chudan, both forward...like a mirror image. You always see jodan kenshi with that back foot turned out slightly...its no wonder fumikomi is so difficult, from an incorrect base.

And finally we talked about aprroach. I was told i should enter my ma'ai strongly without fear, but remain relativley still and make my small movments felt strongly, as apposed to the foot stamping and spooking you sometimes see.

It really was an eye opening experience....

No Jodan Sensei near me either. Books, video's, etcc... will become your best friend.

I was hoping you could add some more details on katate tenouchi. If you don't curl your wrist (as i am doing!) how can your shinai hit thetop of the men? You need somewhat of an angle.

All books, and video's i've ever seen on Jodan all have the back foot curved. Even the AJKF books say that that is "proper". Keeping it straight sounds interesting.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Your feet should be the same as chudan. If you are using hidari jodan, your feet are just switched but they should still be straight and your hips and shoulders should still face the opponent squarely.

All the advice I've ever gotten for contact with katate-men is to flex the wrist - otherwise you're going to hit a lot of men-gane.

[JSchmidt]

We worked on tenouchi from katate waza...and i was told to "punch out" at my opponent at the end of my cut, and not allow my wrist to "break", meaning, my wrist shouldnt bend pointing my fist to the floor..this is considered a loss of control..and i would be helpless but to run into my opponent for saftey.

That's exactly opposite of everything I've been taught.

Jakob

[JSchmidt]

Nishi, I'll reply to your PM here, due to the 1000char limit in PMs.

First, Jodan is a one-cut kamae. When you cut from jodan, you commit yourself entirely to that one cut. There's no 'after' action, if you miss..all you can do, is to close down the distance. To do otherwise, will leave you stranded right in the opponents hitting distance, with no defenses.
In terms of tenuchi, you first need to grip the shinai correctly. Most people (A bad habit picked up from kata, I guess), hold the bokuto/shinai squarely with the left hand when they take jodan. The shinai should still be diagonally held across your palm.
For men-cuts, you still need to 'snap' your wrists, but doing so with a feeling of pushing your left thumb into the opponents throat. This should give you the correct hand-position for cutting men and help the feeling of cutting and not clubbing. (Which, IMO, a punching action will promote). This does lead into a approx 45 degree 'break' of the wrist.
With kote-cuts, I've been taught that if I miss, the shinai should hit the floor.

Hope this makes it clearer.

Jakob

[Steve]

For men-cuts, you still need to 'snap' your wrists, but doing so with a feeling of pushing your left thumb into the opponents throat. This should give you the correct hand-position for cutting men and help the feeling of cutting and not clubbing. (Which, IMO, a punching action will promote). This does lead into a approx 45 degree 'break' of the wrist.
With kote-cuts, I've been taught that if I miss, the shinai should hit the floor.

Jakob

I'm interested in hearing more about how others perform tenouchi from katate waza. Personally, from what I've interpreted from books / video's etc.. is that upon hitting the target (men or kote) your wrist is tilted forward. at the moment of impact, you snap your wrist upward causing the shinai to "pop-up" becoming vertical.

The kote is supposed to "hit the floor" from my understanding as well. In fact, one of the books i have shows this directly. I think there's a scan of it on our club website.

http://www.halifaxkendo.org

click on the "kendo" section and choose the jodan waza article.

[JSchmidt]

The 'pop-up' for me, comes automaticly, as I relax the wrist the moment of impact.

Jakob

[Steve]

interesting. how far does your shinai pop-up? if you just relaxed your wrist, would yours reach this vertical position?

[Steve]

here are the links to some of the Jodan Waza Scans on our club website.

Missed Katate Kote Waza:

http://www.halifaxkendo.org/Jodanwaza/p161.jpg

Shinai Grip:

http://www.halifaxkendo.org/Jodanwaza/p151.jpg

Proper Maai: The highlighted line in the text is a great bit of wisdom for Jodan.

http://www.halifaxkendo.org/Jodanwaza/p152.jpg

And here is the link to the entire list:

http://www.halifaxkendo.org/jodanwaza.html

Maybe these will help spark some more discussions?

Steve

[JSchmidt]

Ah yeah..that grip picture shows what I (try to) do. (I bought that book, btw:p)
I don't think my shinai goes completly vertical. I prefer to have it slight forward to keep momentum forward.

Jakob

[Steve]

Ah yeah..that grip picture shows what I (try to) do. (I bought that book, btw:p)
I don't think my shinai goes completly vertical. I prefer to have it slight forward to keep momentum forward.

Jakob

Yeah...great book.

I picked up the vertical thing from an instructional video of the (former?) Team Korea National Coach. When he demonstrated both Katate Men and Kote strikes, he popped his shinai up to a vertical position. However, the opponent was letting him hit the targets, and he was doing basic drills, not shiai and hence was very calmly doing the standard "pass your opponent" after each strike.

Maybe he was doing it only for these basic exercises?

[Inouye02]

i think all you guys should just try and get a hold of tenken ( USA Team Member ) and ask him about Jodan,,He is by far the best there was

[moocow65]

I personally don't think you should raise your shinai straight up after you hit men. I always apply seigan basics when I do katate waza. When I hit men during seigan, I don't pop my shinai up;I just cut forward. That's the same way I hit when I do nito as well. Well, sometimes my shinai does pop straight up, but I don't do it intentionally. Just a natural reaction that I have to fix.

[Steve]

Just duplicating a post on the Jodan/Nito Ryu thread.

Just to let all the people who participate in this forum a bit of info.

I attended the Ontario Senior Open in Toronto on the 9th. Its been about 8 months since my last tournament at the UoT open...and what a difference! I made it to my court finals, which was a first for me.

Match one: Katate Men, Men misete Morote Kote
Match two: Men misete Morote Kote, Morote Men
Match three: Katate Sayu Men (Encho, 15 minutes)
Match four: Lost to a hiki sayu men in Encho (10 minutes).

I was very pleased with my performance, and had a great time. Maybe it was just more confidence in using Jodan, or maybe the planets were just akigned properly...who knows?

I also managed to get some very helpful comments from a few Sensei (Ohmi and Raymond Sensei for those of you who know them on Katate Kote and Seme respectively), as well as some more reading material on Jodan no Kamae from Ohmi Sensei.

Anyway, I owe everyone on this site a big thanks for all your comments and the discussions we've had regarding Jodan. Thanks everyone!

Steve.

[tango]

Thanks to everyone that has responded in this thread. It's been a very interesting read.

I'd like to make a couple points from my own experience with jodan..

I've tried using it in ji-geiko a couple times and, frankly, I'm just strong enough to use it. I can certainly understand the mantra being spouted here -- "If you're going to do it, do it ALL the time." I mean, for your average kendoka (with average strength) to not prepare himself physically for jodan and then suddenly try it in ji-geiko, I say go for it. Don't even attack. Just try and stay up in jodan for a whole match, using fakes/feints now and then, but no attack. See how dead your shoulders are at the end of a 5-minute ji-geiko. IT IS TOUGH. Sometimes, I would PRAY for tsubazeriai just so I could give my shoulders a slight rest!

For me, it would take quite a bit of *dedicated* training (for several months) just to maintain the jodan position for an entire round of ji-geiko with 5-10 other kendoka.. just to maintain the kamae without worrying about the energy/strength expended with attack.

But I digress.. haha..

Secondly, umm... I've never seen anyone use jodan at a testing. I once geiko'd with a 6.dan and after our fight (I think I was a shodan then), I asked him about jodan and he told me something like "You need more seme with chudan before thinking of that." And at my nidan testing, I had a couple of 5.dan come up to me and said I still needed more seme and would have to come up with a LOT more seme if I wanted to pass sandan.
And it's that kind of stuff that tells me that I shouldn't even be thinking about jodan.

Jodan looks very cool.... except when you miss (just my opinion). I have a lot of respect for guys that start it and stick with it.

Final summation:

The good jodan players will have an intimate knowledge of seme. Most of the jodan players I've personally come across do not have (imo) a very good sense of "mental" or "spiritual" seme.

And I'm not sure exactly how someone can develop a very good, strong "spiritual" seme before having developed an intimate knowledge of good, strong physical seme.

In other words... first we stand, then we walk, then we run; not stand, then run, then walk.

Just an inexperienced nidan's opinion,
tango

Again.. thanks for making such an interesting thread. Very nice!