People who take kendo waaaaay too seriously

[TheBraveFencer]

Ok, I guess this kinda has to do with my last post on "Does USA Kendo have WA" or something like that, but I really think that there are some people out there who take kendo ultra seriously and think everything should be done as it was during the Sengoku and Bakufu periods in Japan. I'm talking about the beginners who read all the books they can find on kendo and kenjutsu and then think they're right along up there with the greats Musashi and Jubei. I'm not trying to say that reading the books is bad or that using old-school (koryu) techniques are pointless or anything, because don't get me wrong I think that's all really interesting, seriously. I've told my dad that I wanted to go to a kenjutsu school in Japan (he called me an idiot for thinking that so I'm in college instead o_O ). But anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that while reading books on kendo and kenjutsu and is history is great and taking the advice of sensei is always, always a must, if you're not open to new ideas and always think that techniques must be learned from a sensei, you're limiting yourself. I'm not saying that you should just bust out all kinds of unorthodox moves in the middle of some tournament, but if your not open to learning and trying out new waza besides the ones a sensei teaches during practice, you can only become as good as the teacher you're learning your moves from, when there's a possibility of getting even better than him/her. Like I said before, I respect all my sensei greatly and their strength in kendo is unquestionable, but you're limiting yourself if you follow them blindly (just because they're sensei). I follow my sensei because they encourage us to build our own waza on the fundamentals they teach. They don't tell us we're stupid if we try something new, they correct us to make the waza more useful. And unlike Mingshi who said that doing jodan and nitto and hassoku were useless and weak, my sensei encourage my senpai who do choose to use those styles and help them develop better techniques. Anyway, that's my spiel. Any comments? Support? Flames? Bring it on :devious:

[samurai999]

I sorta agree with TBF. Too much of one thing is usually bad and "majime-sugi" is sometimes bad. You close your mind to other things and become increasingly one-track minded.

I am also a firm believer of the fact that not all techniques are learned from a sensei. As what my sensei says, the kyus are usually for learning from sensei. You are learning basics and the such and should learn them properly. But! If you are shodan, this is a certification that you have mastered the basics. You then gradually progress into your own kendo. That is how you get your own flair or style. You gotta spread your wings to fly.
Sure, basics are ALWAYS gonna be a part of your practices and your routine when practicing. But, once you start ji-geiko, you practice things on your own and learn other things from other people. Senpai or sensei. That is what I think is neat about Kendo.


My 0.02$,
Tim

[Inouye02]

man if mingshi thinks nito and jodan are weak i hope she seeks out Chinen , itokazu from Team U.S.A at WKC and asks to keiko with them maybe she might change her mind , I know the Korean Sensei I train with is not weak in nito ryu,

[dorkusxmaximus]

Is the Korean sensei from from your dojo, Jamie?

[kendomushi]

Balance and an open mind are essential to bettering ones kendo. We are not samurai, none of us alive today and participating in this forum are or ever have been samurai. But we are kendoka, and we should take what we do seriously. That does not mean only doing as your main sensei feels is most correct. In fact it means growing beyond that and pulling away from it. In learning kendo we have three steps on the path ( I forget off the top of my head how to say it in Japanese and since I'm supposed to be working don't have th time to look up the actual phrase):

First, we take in all that we are taught and hold it sacred. This learning comes from our sensei. It can be augmented by reading material but reading material cannot replace or be superior to that actual experience of having a teacher work with you to learn the basics of kendo.

Second, we start to see that there are other things that other instructors and kendoka do differently and that exactly what sensei does might not exactly fit our own concept or abilities in kendo. This doesn't mean we discard all we have learned up to now, we just see that there is more out there to learn.

Third, we form our own kendo. We draw away from what our sensei taught us and make our own understanding of ourselves and kendo work the best way we can. We make kendo our own and unique to us. All this we do while still holding firm to the basics and valuing what has been taught to us from our first day to the present.


I think those who follow this development become the strongest kendoka. Some of them use strange looking waza, or prefer to fight nito or jodan. How they do it doesn't matter if they follow the path above they tend to become strong formidable opponents and people we can all learn a bit more about our own kendo from.

Does that make me sound too serious? I hope not.

[Inouye02]

hi nancy , no he's not ,,he's the head sensei at Cypress Dojo..

and Nakauchi Sensei over at PCI dojo has a knockout yoko men with nito ryu also ,

[dorkusxmaximus]

Hey Jamie, are there any girl kenshi over in California that practice nito-ryu?

[KATSUJIN]

i agree with kendomushi....just becos we are practising kendo doens't mean we do it in a 'common routine' kind of method. Sure we dont go to the extreme but we have to still take it seriously.....

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by kendomushi
In learning kendo we have three steps on the path ( I forget off the top of my head how to say it in Japanese and since I'm supposed to be working don't have th time to look up the actual phrase):



The phrase is "shu ha ri."

I was told that not until sandan should you start thinking about the "ha" stage. I agree. Up until sandan you are pretty much just doing straight forward kendo, which doesn't leave much room for the development of individual style or interpretation.

[TheBraveFencer]

To Kendomushi and Katsujin:

I agree with the way you guys see kendo and don't think that's "too seriously." I guess what I really meant to say is that I don't think you can learn kendo just by reading a book, as some people out there seem to believe. Some people really think that just by reading the Five Rings by Musashi makes them a better kenshi than those that haven't, and while reading it may help, I don't think it compares to the skill gained through actual keiko. I guess then by "way too seriously" I meant people who take the books too seriously without room for imagination.

[KATSUJIN]

ahh....ok i get it....yup u are right.....:-)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by samurai999
If you are shodan, this is a certification that you have mastered the basics.
Bwahahahahahaha!

Still working on the basics after 20 years...

[Confound]

Amen, Neil. A sensei I know went to a pre-8dan practice in Kyoto, he says that all they worked on was kihon, kirikaeshi, men uchi and kote men. That's it. He said that kihon are the hardest part of kendo, and he would know.

When you stop working on kihon, it's entirely possible that you're either dead, or you've overestimated your abilities.

c

[titus]

Originally posted by TheBraveFencer
Ok, I guess this kinda has to do with my last post on "Does USA Kendo have WA" or something like that, but I really think that there are some people out there who take kendo ultra seriously and think everything should be done as it was during the Sengoku and Bakufu periods in Japan.

And what exactly gives you the authority to decide whether other people are spending too much time on something? Maybe they've simply found something fulfilling and want to pursue it.

[sminki]

Originally posted by Confound


When you stop working on kihon, it's entirely possible that you're either dead, or you've overestimated your abilities.

c

Or your kendo will never improve beyond a certain level.

[mingshi]

Bloody hell!!!

If you guys want to chat with cute smart girls, at least choose a better pickup line.

This is waaaaaay too lame. I wish you had a wife.

<quote> wahahahhaha </quote>

p.s. I am gay.

[TheBraveFencer]

Originally posted by mingshi
Bloody hell!!!

If you guys want to chat with cute smart girls, at least choose a better pickup line.

This is waaaaaay too lame. I wish you had a wife.

<quote> wahahahhaha </quote>



I don't get it....:confused:

[TheBraveFencer]

Originally posted by titus


And what exactly gives you the authority to decide whether other people are spending too much time on something? Maybe they've simply found something fulfilling and want to pursue it.

Hold on there buddy, I never said I had authority or anything of the sort. I don't spend every free hour I have practicing, but I do think I put in a lot of time into my kendo. That's not what I'm trying to argue. I'm just saying there are people out there who think they can read up on the development of the different ryu and the techniques each uses and become "instant sensei" on the topic of kendo, and they can't. I'm not saying the reading about the history of kenjutsu is bad or anything, or that its not fulfilling and that no one should pursue it. There are just some people on the forum who are just beginning and think that by reading "Gorin no Sho" will bring them up to par with some of the higher ranking kenshi without having to gain the experience in practice and on the court. Like I said before, reading isn't the bad thing, it's thinking that reading can be substituted for hard work in practice that ticks me off.

[Inouye02]

not that i know of nancy , are you interested in practicing nito also ?

[kendomushi]

TBF........

I agree, a book alone is not the way to learn kendo. Nor does reading something specific like The Book of 5 Rings automatically confer any greater understanding of kendo or anything else. Though it can open doors of thought and imagination.

[dorkusxmaximus]

yeah i've been interested in nito-ryu for a while. i think it's really effective, but it looks like it could take a lot of energy out of a person. i won't thinkg about it again until i'm at the right rank. do you practice nito, Jamie?

[Inouye02]

trying ...

[Inouye02]

when you see moocow , i'm sure he'll give you some pointers

[dorkusxmaximus]

that'll be sweet ^_^. i'll ask him someday.

[Confound]

Having a few kendo books handy is useful, but mostly for kata illustrations, and waza explanations. They're also pretty useful for shiai rules.

As for kendo and kenjutsu history, it's interesting, and great for kendouka cocktail parties, but the world really has changed. It's a bit silly and unrealistic to try to emulate books about samurai, mostly because killing another human being is going to land you in big trouble, no matter who you are. Not to mention the whole bit about carrying weapons around...

c

[moocow65]

the only nito girl i know of is the one i met this past summer in japan. girls get to use the light 37 shinai, while guys have to use the heavy heavy 37 shinai! that's not fair. of course, the shinai i saw toda-sensei use was way bigger than my 39, but he's not human. i think a girl nito would kick ass cause very few girls know how to go against nito. that's something i would wanna see here in the US.

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Inouye02
man if mingshi thinks nito and jodan are weak i hope she seeks out Chinen , itokazu from Team U.S.A at WKC and asks to keiko with them maybe she might change her mind , I know the Korean Sensei I train with is not weak in nito ryu,

Normally I'd let Mingshi respond to this for herself but given that her last posts seem to have been written under the influence of large quantities of alcohol I may as well jump in.

Where did she (or anyone else for that matter) state that jodan and nito are weak? (I believe miss Wan said that nito players are "Musashi wannabees", not the same thing).

I mean, granted, nito-ryu and jodan players are a bit on the defensive side when criticized because they practice what are essentially bastardizations of kendo. That and the fact that the phallic symbolism of the shoto probably accounts for some nito players being a tad touchy (who wants to be accused of fighting with a dildo afterall).
But these are not excuses for falsely accusing people of calling either jodan or nito "weak". I mean, they may be devoid of imagination but both those kamae are certainly not "weak". Please find where miss Wan said such foolish things and I will denounce her as well, either that or retract your accusation.

And if you take me seriously then you might be interested in buying a little bridge in Brooklyn I happen to know about.

[dorkusxmaximus]

a 37 shinai?!? that's great!!! i'm going to try nito out for sure. it's good to know that there's at least a girl kenshi out there practicing it. it's very inspiring ^_^.

[Inouye02]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheBraveFencer
[B] And unlike Mingshi who said that doing jodan and nitto and hassoku were useless and weak, my sensei encourage my senpai who do choose to use those styles and help them develop better techniques. Anyway, that's my spiel. Any comments? Support? Flames? Bring it on :devious:


why ask me Alex ?

[M.K. Kawai]

AlexM,

Inouye was just respnding to what TheBraveFencer had posted originally(sorry dude, if I'm putting you on the spot). Your comment should be direct him not Inouye.

MKK

[Inouye02]

i wonder how alex knows so much about a dildo ?

[AlexM]

D'oh!!!
Quote from wrong person. My bad. Sorry Inouye, I meant to slander TheBraveFencer not you...

As for dildo knowledge....insert your own disgusting remark here. :D

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Confound
Amen, Neil. A sensei I know went to a pre-8dan practice in Kyoto, he says that all they worked on was kihon, kirikaeshi, men uchi and kote men. That's it. He said that kihon are the hardest part of kendo, and he would know.

When you stop working on kihon, it's entirely possible that you're either dead, or you've overestimated your abilities.

c

Ahhh.. But I didn't say that you STOP doing basics completely. You have to practice kihon to stay at the same level or to improve. Read ALL the way through the post next time. :D :D :D :D

Tim

[Inouye02]

it's cool alex , i was just scratching my head on that one

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by samurai999


Ahhh.. But I didn't say that you STOP doing basics completely. You have to practice kihon to stay at the same level or to improve. Read ALL the way through the post next time. :D :D :D :D

Tim
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: at shodan you have in no way, shape or form "mastered the basics". You've played kendo for a couple of years, you can show some energy and yell real loud, and most of the time your shinai and your foot hit more or less together. That's it, that's all.

Let's make it even clearer: shodan == beginner with a piece of paper.

[samurai999]

Ok. Maybe "master" was too strong of a word. At least that is what my sensei says. I guess it is more that you know what things are and when. If you don't know what a men is by the time you are shodan, then you have some problems... :D :D

You keep practicing to keep things at the same level or to improve. You DON'T really relearn anything. Does a 8dan sensei stand right next to a yon-dan telling him/her every step of the way what to do at every practice? Of course not!

Lastly, if your shinai and your foot hit "more or less together most of the time", by the time you are shodan then you also might need some more sensei assistance.

Tim

[samurai999]

Sorry about the double post guys.. But had to let one more thing out on this issue.

My cousin (on my mothers side) used to play kendo in middle school and part of high school in Japan. He quit to play soccer. I have heard through him that kendo is also losing popularity in Japan among the younger population because it isn't "cool enough". Complaints that are prominent among youngsters is that kendo is "too traditional" and they have to take things too seriously and it is boring. To put it in laymans terms? Squaresville. Sounds like whining? Ya definitely. But it is the truth.

People like Ichiro Suzuki and Hideki Matsui have made baseball so popular that it is probably the most popular sport in Japan. The only thing that rivals that is the J-League. Since Japan did MUCH better than expected in the World Cup, lots of kids are flocking to soccer with dreams of winning the world cup or playing for one of the J-League teams. Either that or being in the "Dai-league" like Matsui or Ichiro.

Where does this leave kendo? As the trailer. Something that kids have to do with the parents tagging behind wagging the finger. So the point? Well, this is what happens when dojos or sensei project the view of kendo as JUST strict, and disciplinarian with no other views accepted. In other words, majime-sugi. Kendo is (to me) practiced in order to gain discipline, confidence, etc. But it is also about having FUN. Why go to a dojo and practice twice a week for 3-4 hours just to learn discipline when you don't have fun!

My more than $0.02,
Tim

[blur]

I don't know about you guys, but I've had some coaches in sports like soccer who were pretty strict and disciplinarian (sp?) themselves! I guess there's more scope for fun in other sports, but it's not like any sport is necessarily "beer and skittles" just because it isn't deeply rooted in an unwavering tradition.

The numbers might shrink, but I think something like Kendo will always have a keen following, so long as there are sensible people walking the face of the planet :)

[JSchmidt]

"People like Ichiro Suzuki and Hideki Matsui have made baseball so popular that it is probably the most popular sport in Japan. The only thing that rivals that is the J-League. "

Erhh, Baseball was Japanese national sport way before Suzuki and Matsui made it to MLB (or even started playing)...Football was also the second most popular sport before the World Cup, although neither events have hurt the two sports :)

"Something that kids have to do with the parents tagging behind wagging the finger."

Well, that's actually also fairly common with regards to football (Soccer) in Europe...at least my parents did that :).

Jakob

[KhawMengLee]

I don't know about you guys, but I've had some coaches in sports like soccer who were pretty strict and disciplinarian (sp?) themselves!

Hahaha...blur, were you a public or private schoolboy?

I was in a private school in Perth and our coach was a bloody fanatic. "School comes first" was his motto. Yup, bugger the TEE exams and studying...no missing out on training and matches...sigh.

It becomes less fun when you get too serious.

[blur]

Private school here. So I know where you're coming from :D

[samurai999]

Originally posted by JSchmidt

Erhh, Baseball was Japanese national sport way before Suzuki and Matsui made it to MLB (or even started playing)...Football was also the second most popular sport before the World Cup, although neither events have hurt the two sports :)

Well, that's actually also fairly common with regards to football (Soccer) in Europe...at least my parents did that :).

Jakob

Hehe.. For me? Sports were "too dangerous" though they forced me to do judo for a year when I was in 4th grade. Then, band practice. Play piano or else! wag wag wag :D

Oops... True that baseball was the sport in Japan before Godzilla and Ichiro. But, those two have pushed that sport to levels of popularity I haven't seen in that country before.

Edit-By the way, your boy Damian Moss is undefeated for my SF Giants! 5-0! Giants all the way this time!

Tim

[JSchmidt]

" your boy Damian Moss"

Was to comment aimed at me?:). If so, I'm not a native kiwi, so I have no clue who Damian Moss is :)

Jakob

[mingshi]

These are the Jodan/Nito/Hasso-related threads that I have participated in (by running a search of mingshi+jodan/nito/hasso):-

fighting against a nito kenshi (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=706)
has the role of shoto changed in nito? (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=844)
fighting from hasso and other irregularities (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=461)

There are altogether 10 threads or so, but In those not listed here I was simply asking a question, and not putting comments.

I DID NOT, FOR ONCE, CLAIMS THAT DOING JODAN, NITO AND HASSO ARE USELESS AND WEAK!!!

FOR THOSE WHO ACCUSED ME OF ANYTHING THAT I DID NOT SAY BEFORE, I DEMAND A PUBLIC APOLOGY!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Notice how these guys keep picking on me and Confound. If you check their previous posts, (including the "beat-up poll"), these people always try to make us talk.

[TheBraveFencer]

Alex:

Ok, I retract the statement about Mingshi saying that nito was weak. But I do feel that she and some other posters seem to denounce and look down upon the use of nito and jodan as well as hasso and other "irregular" kamae as one thread called them. She did call kenshi (I don't like using "kendoka"...) that did jodan and nito weirdos, and I don't think she has that right. Like I stated in this thread earlier, I believe having openness of mind makes stronger kenshi, and doing Jodan and Nito require such an openness of mind and imagination, as they often have to develop their own waza because not many sensei practice jodan or nito, so I feel you are wrong in saying that they are devoid of imagination. And as for nito and jodan being "bastardizations of kendo," couldn't you really say kendo is a bastardization of kenjutsu if you took a really conservative stand about it from a koryu viewpoint? Kendo roots from a way to practice kenjutsu without seriously injuring your opponent, and nito and jodan are both kamae that were used and needed to be practiced, so how is that a bastardization of anything? Jodan and Nito and other kamae, I feel, are unique styles of kendo and the kamae and those who use them deserved to be recognized as such and not just bastardizations of "the original." It's people like you that jodan and nito kenshi get defensive for, because you don't think they're doing "real" or "true" kendo.

To Kawai Sensei,

No worries about putting me on the spot :)

[Hongsermeier]

Mingshi...they just pick on you becuse your cutie and they want to talk with you.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by samurai999

You DON'T really relearn anything.

Uh-huh. Practice a few more years and you'll find every once in a while you'll discover a whole new way of thinking or doing something that you thought you had cold.

Does a 8dan sensei stand right next to a yon-dan telling him/her every step of the way what to do at every practice? Of course not!

Not every practice, but if that hachidan gives the yondan advice at a seminar he is 90% likely to be working over the basics.

Lastly, if your shinai and your foot hit "more or less together most of the time", by the time you are shodan then you also might need some more sensei assistance.

I agree but I've attended a lot of gradings and acted as tachi-ai in a bunch so I've got a pretty good idea where the standard actually is.

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by samurai999 Sorry about the double post guys.. But had to let one more thing out on this issue.

My cousin (on my mothers side) used to play kendo in middle school and part of high school in Japan. He quit to play soccer. I have heard through him that kendo is also losing popularity in Japan among the younger population because it isn't "cool enough". Tim

Its not really a matter of popularity. My Kendo students have already been earmarked through elementary and junior schools before they join high school. They already have Nidan, have put in about 7 or eight years and practice 7 days a week with morning training.

Its a natural progression. A lot of them come in on a scholarship basis. So of course they are serious. You don't win Japanese championships any other way.

Baseball is along similar lines. But soccer is not so old anyway.

You get out of it what you put in to it. Most of them leave school and go on to other things in life putting in the same effort.

Not all teachers are strict disciplinarians although I have seen some real bullys but there are some good teachers out there that can get whats needed without having to push too much.

My kids are as cool as they come and a quitter is a quitter.

A respected teacher said to me, "You should love your way. If you dont, move on".

The bottom has dropped out of Kendo mostly because of the tremendous pressure on kids to succeed in education and not enough time to commit to both.

Hyaku

[samurai999]

Neil,

I have found out from my sensei that it is easier to change or do something totally different when you are in the "infancy stages" of kendo. That is the kyu level. That is when basics are taught. That is when you learn the most. Whether you learn them properly then is the job of the sensei. Thats why we usually have higher ranking sensei or sempai with more experience teaching those people. You are absolutely correct that you keep learning, but to totally overhaul and take apart something when you are at a higher level requires much more effort. At that time, your basics have flourished to something (hopefully) better and incorporates itself into your own style. Sorta like how butter melts into the nooks and crannies of a Thomas' English muffin. You have your own way that you accustomed to. Once you get accustomed to that you play that way. You have those tendencies for life. Even though you restructure your mechanics and overhaul, all of those natural tendencies and bad habits come out during your shiais. I do agree with your saying that you learn new approaches and ideas, but just that. You add on to your style like legos. But, you don't tear down the whole fort. So to come full circle, that is why you learn and restructure as much as you can at the kyu levels in order to get those basics down before you attain shodan.

Ok, if the 4dan gets advice at a summer camp or kendo seminar, can you give me an example of a person (4dan or above) that totally changed his/her kendo with absolutely NONE of his/her former habits the same after 1 or 2 years?

And one more thing. Shodan=beginner with piece of paper? To what degree? A 6kyu is a beginner with a piece of paper too. If somebody attains renshi, is he/she a beginner too? He she gets a piece of paper too. The rank of shodan means that you have accomplished something. It doesn't necessarily mean you start over again. Please enlighten me. :)

Hyaku,

It is nice to know another viewpoint on this and hopefully kendo is still keeping some popularity with the younger generation. At dojos around here, we have the same type of issue. Kids that are really good and are into it have to focus on school as well. Middle school is fine, but come junior and senior year in HS, they spend more time studying and preparing for college. Well, once college comes, they are usually gone for 4 years. Even though they have dojos nearby and maybe a college club, they are usually studying so practice is out of the question. If they really like kendo, they'll come back to it eventually.

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by samurai999
Ok, if the 4dan gets advice at a summer camp or kendo seminar, can you give me an example of a person (4dan or above) that totally changed his/her kendo with absolutely NONE of his/her former habits the same after 1 or 2 years?

Of course it is impossible to completely change everything. For most people later on they come back to those basics they first learned. But I have also seen some big transformations after shodan among people whose basics were not taught so well.

Shodan=beginner with piece of paper? To what degree?

Shodan as an adult represents a couple of years of 2 or 3 times per week practice. To my view, that's a beginner. Or maybe, "novice" would be a better term for you. It's certainly not someone who's "mastered" much of anything. Although you make a valid point that the basics learned at that time (if taught properly) serve the kendoka for his whole career, I counter that the shodan person isn't executing those basics yet. He's got another bunch of time before he really understands what they're worth, including a bunch of screwing around doing stupid stuff before he comes back to them.

Funny, I thought the fact that a kendo shodan was awarded so easily would de-mystify this idea of the "black belt" being some sort of high level, so prevalent to North American martial arts. When I got mine, I lost any illusions of superman status or whatever, as I was perfectly aware of my inadequacies after only a couple years' practice.

[titus]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

Shodan as an adult represents a couple of years of 2 or 3 times per week practice.

Funny, I thought the fact that a kendo shodan was awarded so easily would de-mystify this idea of the "black belt" being some sort of high level, so prevalent to North American martial arts. When I got mine, I lost any illusions of superman status or whatever, as I was perfectly aware of my inadequacies after only a couple years' practice.

Neil, don't you think it's slightly unfair to associate regular, dedicated attendance to a new art (kendo), several times a week for a few years, with something that is "easily" attained? Don't you think so-called beginners should be concentrating on what they have achieved so far instead of constantly worrying about what they still have to learn?

I'm not saying that they are "superman status" or something, but I think many experienced kendoka on these forums put down the significant achievements of beginners by telling them "you don't really know that much, you still have alot to learn." I'm sure you don't mean to be cruel about or anything, but I do think that your comments could easily dissuade people who are in the crucial beginning stages where they need encouragement.

After all, if you're running a marathon (even a never-ending one like kendo), isn't it easier to look forward to the next checkpoint rather than worrying about how far away the end is?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by titus
Neil, don't you think it's slightly unfair to associate regular, dedicated attendance to a new art (kendo), several times a week for a few years, with something that is "easily" attained?

Not at all. Suppose you played soccer twice a week for two years in a rec league. Is it a personal accomplishment? Yes. Do you think you've done something extraordinary? Hardly. Do you think after 2 years you're any good in the overall scheme of things? Not really. Gonna be playing in the World Cup right away? Bwahaha.

Martial arts has been distorted and mystified over the years and the #1 suspect is this mythical "black belt". It's a nice step but that's it. People attain similar levels of ability all the time in many other activities without a belt or a certificate. It's just in the martial arts where we put attaining novice ability on some sort of pedestal.

Don't you think so-called beginners should be concentrating on what they have achieved so far instead of constantly worrying about what they still have to learn?

I think getting shodan is a good time to pat yourself on the back, verify that you're doing some things OK, and carry on with training. But for some people, shodan means they can quit and do something else, because they have their "black belt" and where else is there to go?

After all, if you're running a marathon (even a never-ending one like kendo), isn't it easier to look forward to the next checkpoint rather than worrying about how far away the end is?

Absolutely, which is one of the purposes of the ranks. You'll now get comments like "that was OK for shodan, but now you need to do X, Y and Z for nidan".

I just bristle when I hear statements like "shodan means 'mastered the basics' " or "getting shodan is like getting a college degree, and after that is post-graduate". Getting shodan is more like grade 8 graduation - a good thing, but hardly worth all the fuss people make over it these days.

[TheBraveFencer]

I agree with Neil on his thoughts about shodan or "black belt." I mean just the other day I saw a karate demonstration from a "mcdojo" and the announcer was saying here's Sensei so-and-so...I turn and look and there's a little kid in a black gi with a black obi on. Not to demean the kid or anything, but just because he's a black belt doesn't mean he can be a sensei. To be a sensei you need a lot more than 3 years of training and a colored belt. You need experience most of all, and lots of it in order to be given the title as a teacher. It's when "mcdojo" do stupid things like that make black belts so "powerful" and "desirable." I mean, don't get me wrong, I guess I kinda use it to my advantage and tell new people that I meet that I could beat people down with a chopstick because I'm a black belt in kendo (as a joke of course :p) and people are kind of in awe when you tell them you're a black belt and it is something to be proud of, but there's just so much more to learn, and shodan is only the beginning of that long road.

[Curtis]

This is a very interesting discussion. We have a couple groups to consider here. Becoming shodan as an adult and starting as small child and becoming shodan as a teenager.

Quite often you will see teenagers who in fact have a mastery of the basics. For the adults I think of it more as having an understanding of the basics. What we are after of course is perfection of the basics, which to me and to most everyone is not the same as mastering the basics. And as you all know this is why we see hachidan candidates working on their basics for the test. This of course all comes down to what is your definition of mastering the basics.

When I was sandan boy did I think I knew a lot. Now at rokudan I know less than half of what I knew then. Attaining dan is useful for recognition of your progress. Yes sometimes it is made valueless. We can’t always help that.

Kendo should be serious but it also has to be fun. I’ve run across people who give you the shouldn’t smile speech. Then I practice with someone like Matsunaga Sensei, hachidan and he is smiling the whole time he is picking me apart.

All in all it is the long haul we are concerned with.

[Hongsermeier]

Neil....Shodan as an Adult represents a couple of years of 2 or 3 times per week practice.

Wish we had your grading scale here. I started practicing when I was 34. I've been practicing for 2 years, and have reached nikyu. I still have two more years to reach shodan. I've been averaging 4 or more practices per week. I've also practiced in Japan while on vacation and gotten extra instruction from my wife who is a nidan. At that rate, by your grading, I should be nidan or more.

[Hongsermeier]

Curtis....Kendo should be serious but it also has to be fun. I’ve run across people who give you the shouldn’t smile speech. Then I practice with someone like Matsunaga Sensei, hachidan and he is smiling the whole time he is picking me apart

I must agree with having fun. I'm sure Tim and M_French can vouch for practicing with Matsuda Sensei from San Jose and having him smiling the whole time he kicks your ass. :cross_eye

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
I've been practicing for 2 years, and have reached nikyu. I still have two more years to reach shodan.
I can only say that your grading scale is quite harsh compared to most, although I've heard that the Germans are considerably tougher.

[Curtis]

Here in the Northwest the minimum is 2 and a half years for shodan. 3 years is the norm.

[titus]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

[B]Neil, don't you think it's slightly unfair to associate regular, dedicated attendance to a new art (kendo), several times a week for a few years, with something that is "easily" attained?

Not at all. Suppose you played soccer twice a week for two years in a rec league. Is it a personal accomplishment? Yes. Do you think you've done something extraordinary? Hardly. Do you think after 2 years you're any good in the overall scheme of things? Not really. Gonna be playing in the World Cup right away? Bwahaha.

Martial arts has been distorted and mystified over the years and the #1 suspect is this mythical "black belt". It's a nice step but that's it. People attain similar levels of ability all the time in many other activities without a belt or a certificate. It's just in the martial arts where we put attaining novice ability on some sort of pedestal.


Neil, first of all, I was not talking about your personal vendetta against the black belt myth (which I agree with you is crazy).

My point is that as someone more experienced you should help people with less experience see what they have accomplished while at the same time letting them see they can still improve their skills over the future.

Not to mention that I think that whether "you're any good in the overall scheme of things" is totally irrelevant. Isn't one supposed to judge progress based on one's own abilities and not everyone else's? I don't think you'll find any 8-dans walking around telling everyone how great they are "in the overall scheme of things" but instead trying to figure out how they can improve themselves even more.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Curtis
Here in the Northwest the minimum is 2 and a half years for shodan. 3 years is the norm.
Kinda depends on when the tests are scheduled, ne? We test in late February, so people who are quite talented may be able to pass ikkyu after starting in September. But more likely they'll skip that grade and so they're looking at ikkyu in 1.5 years and shodan in 2.5. In Vancouver they test in late November, so nobody is ready for ikkyu then. Minimum time for shodan is then 2.25 years, assuming a September start.

And Titus, I agree that encouragement should be given. I just think it's important for people to understand the real value of what they've accomplished.

[Old Warrior]

"Shodan as an adult represents a couple of years of 2 or 3 times per week practice. To my view, that's a beginner. Or maybe, "novice" would be a better term for you. It's certainly not someone who's "mastered" much of anything."

But, "your view" is not the only one that merits consideration. To someone who knows nothing about kendo - one who has reached shodan is an "expert". Amongst humble "experts" in anything - the more they learn the more they know there is to learn. This applies to just about everything. As a matter of fact, most people who have the highest levels of skill are very modest about their acheivements because they know there is always room for improvement.

But I think an adult who spends 3 years, 3 nights a week, learning kendo; while working and tending to his family, has a right to accept the rank of shodan as a considerable achievement. Only someone who has raised children to adulthood can understand what it takes to set aside this much of your life for a consistent period without causing major family turmoil.

[Curtis]

Neil,

That's North of the border , eh?

For PNKF you are only allowed to test up to sankyu without any previous rank. Above that it is by special request

We test in February up to yondan and August up to shodan. The August one may go up to sandan starting this year. We also have a minimum 6 months between ranks for up to shodan. Plus minimum age is 9 for 6 kyu.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Marsten-sensei - CKF doesn't impose any restrictions before ikkyu, it's entirely club responsibility. We don't do kyu tests.

OW - my kids are 8 and 10. I've been practising the whole time (and considerably before they were around). I don't think I need to have raised them to adulthood to understand the commitment. My comments stand.

[slidercrank]

In my federation (GNEUSKF), it is possible for one with no rank to test directly for ikkyu. The candidate applies to test for ikkyu or nikyu.

Most kyu testers are only asked to do kirikaeshi and basic strikes. But some, those who test directly for ikkyu/nikyu, will also be asked to keiko.

If he demonstrated good enough kendo with his shinai, he would be asked back to do kata. And if he passed kata, he would receive ikkyu. If his kirikaeshi, kihons, and keikos were just so so, he would not be asked to do kata and would just receive nikyu.

Granted, vast majority of adult students get 4kyu or 3kyu at their first grading, but it's not unheard of to get ikkyu at one's first grading.

I had thought this was the norm, but now I see some other US regional federations actually have strict requirements down to 3kyu.

For those who have sat on the grading panel, can you specify what you look for in an 1kyu, 2kyu and 3kyu level??

[Confound]

Mr. TheBraveFencer,

I have used the word 'irregular' when referring to hasso and other non-standard kamae. That does not mean I do not use them, or demean opponents who do. When faced with a bewildering kamae from an unknown opponent, I use hasso. If only because it gives a few extra seconds to think about what to do.

As for the current state of the thread, which is gradings, black belts, etc. My two cents is with Neil on this one.

c

[Curtis]

For PNKF we require they perform basics and keiko up to 2kyu for 15 and under and 3 kyu for adults. After that just 2 keiko.

Each examiner is a little different but within a range. As an examiner for ikkyu I look for a good basic strike, perhaps nidan waza and some sense of timing. Below that I mostly hope they have it. They also must show they can be a good motodachi for drills at ikkyu for our test.

We break the apart the kids from the adults since the kids almost always make the adults look less skillful than they might really be. At our February test we had a number of people who did not pass for dans. Their basics did not come through and many were just out there hitting.

Yes PNKF is a little stiff on our requirements. But it works for us.

I was just down to the SW for their promotion and it was quite a stark contrast between the kyus and the dans in level. Many of the kyu candidates got graded down. We have that sometimes here for our adult kyus.

Anyone else?

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Its intesting how different associations do this

the BKA doesnt recod grades until ikkyu - up to then its up to the clubs

this leaves the clubs freedom but doesnt provide a framework - you can argue either way whether this is good or bad

It took me two organisations and 5 years to make shodan (the first time round) .

One of our club members who is fighting in 12 wkc made shodan in 9 months

kendo is personal - your journey will not be the same as other peoples for any combination of reasons

For me one of the most compelling reasons to carry on is that there is ALWAYS a new revelation round the corner. Im sandan now - have I mastered the basics - b*llockcs have I - If Sumi sensei (8th dan hanshi) says he is always looking to improve his form then where am I ?

Grade is a measurement & any measurement is subjective - shodan represents qualified beginner but its the toughest psychologicsal hurdle - once you can do shodan you can progress - if you want to.


congratulations to you when you make shodan, we have all been through that point - in our club two things happen - 1) we all get drunk to celebrate, 2 the training gets harder (because you have demonstrated an ability to learn thus you get to learn more)

don t get too hung up on a grade - its what happens in the dojo that marks your worth

cheers

[Hyaku]

I really think its a bad idea to be preposessed by the Dan-I system. I think one of the things that attracted me towards Kendo having taking lots of gradings in Karate and Ju-Jitsu was the fact that they did not actually wear belts. Since then I have taken what I consider to be a step forward by opting for the shogo system and just enjoying the Budo practice, the challenge within it and the interaction.

Spare a thought for these Japanese kids that are satisfied with Nidan after 7 or 8 years and if you want their standard thats what you have to do.

The downside is it does not do much for popularity and I see a lot of them burn themselves out.

What sort of Dojo is it where you teacher does not instruct the dojo sempai to delegate responsibilty to senior members to help juniors? Beats me. Get up the top end and get your medicine from the teacher then get back down the other end and get on with it!

One thing I have noticed though is a lot of these Sensei are not professional teachers anyway. Even if they have that Kendo shogo title given with the grade. So we cant expect too much.

The Kendo population also dropped after they increased the waiting time between shodan and Nidan and added Ikkyu to the grading syllabus. Its going back up but mostly females.

I have never sat on or even seen a grading panel for 2nd or 3rd Kyu in Kendo. But in grading Ikkyu you are basicaly looking for and unqualified Shodan. Ikkyu are told that they should perform the same if not a bit better for shodan shinsa. That qualification as Neil Gedzwill says is a "qualified begginer". One foot on the ladder of achievment in a lifetimes practice.

Hyaku

[m_french]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
I'm sure Tim and M_French can vouch for practicing with Matsuda Sensei from San Jose and having him smiling the whole time he kicks your ass. :cross_eye

What about Yamaguchi sensei from MV laughing hysterically while throwing tsuki repeatedly as you hypervenelate to the point of thowing up after running the gauntlet???....a the memories:bandit:

[m_french]

Originally posted by slidercrank

I had thought this was the norm, but now I see some other US regional federations actually have strict requirements down to 3kyu.



In Northern California the testing starts a 6kyu. When I moved to the south they asked my rank and I told them that I had received 4kyu only to find out that they do not test adults here until 3kyu. not that the testing hasn't been a great experience but don't you think the ASUKF should set some guidelines as to how the testing format should run nation wide??:beard:

[TheBraveFencer]

To Confound,

I didn't get the feeling from you that you demeaned jodan or nito by using "irregular" to describe them. It's just that on that one old thread when mingshi called jodan and nito people weirdos that kinda bugged me. And the "bastardization" comment kinda ticked me off too. Anyway, thanks for not attacking me like you do Mr. KuruKuru :) (PS He's really a nice guy deep down...he just likes to provoke people :p)

[Inouye02]

m_french , the begining adults start at 4kyu when testing for the 1st time...but since stephan was looking good in keiko they let him go for 3kyu ..who knows maybe you'll pass the galloper some day ...lol

[Inouye02]

do you know something we dont hongsermeir ? about mingshi ?

[misterkurukuru]

I started kendo as a child and i had to wait 6 years to get my freaken shodan! and then we have adults that get thier shodan after 3 or four years, in my mind thats not right. its okay to skip ranks, but in SCKF we start the adults a 4 kyu, i think thats too high, because when these adults hit shodan, they get creamed by all the yudansha becasuse they lack the XP. I know a lot of shodans that are not ready to take off thier wihite strip off of thier keiko gi. Some adults are good though and they should be advanced quicky, but most are not good.

[smith]

I'd say you're still doing kendo as a child, kurukuru-kun.

[William Honda]

Smith-chan,

Have you witnessed Mr. Kurukuru’s kendo?

[smith]

OMG I can't believe I bought into this. I must have been INCREDIBLY bored...

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Curtis
Here in the Northwest the minimum is 2 and a half years for shodan. 3 years is the norm.

I think that is about what I took to get to shodan. I hopped kyu this way.

nothing->5kyu->2kyu->1kyu->1dan.

If I was starting out at like 8-10yrs as what most of the better kenshi did, I'd be about the same rank. We NCKF have a fairly new system where you can't technically skip, but you can take two kyu tests in a year. (May and November) I had my 1kyu test in Nov 2001 and took my dan test in may 2002.

Although a bit raw in presentation, kurukuru has a point. One of my sensei told us that when you test, you should "look better than the rank you are testing for". If judges are telling you stuff like "aren't you 3dan already?" if you are testing for 1dan, then you must be doing something right! :D

Tim

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

But I have also seen some big transformations after shodan among people whose basics were not taught so well.

Shodan as an adult represents a couple of years of 2 or 3 times per week practice. To my view, that's a beginner. Or maybe, "novice" would be a better term for you. It's certainly not someone who's "mastered" much of anything.

I counter that the shodan person isn't executing those basics yet. He's got another bunch of time before he really understands what they're worth, including a bunch of screwing around doing stupid stuff before he comes back to them.


You have implied one of my points. Basics should be discussed and stressed IN DETAIL at kyu level. That is what I thought they were for. If you learn them quickly? Kudos. If you don't have them or have a hard time learning them, you will have a long journey to 1dan. There are lots of so called 1dans that pass every year that hit like baseball players (and give concussions) and can't even fumikomi.

Now your next statement, what exactly do you mean by that? When I started practicing on the NCKF team (I was still 2kyu at the time) we were practicing two weekends (for 3-4 hrs each day) a month until US champs. This was in addition to the 2 days of practice we had per week plus the once a month godo-keiko.
That means that I was technically practicing 4x a week plus 1 day for godo keiko. Maybe I haven't "mastered much of anything" , but I sure feel that I have accomplished a lot.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "executing"? If you execute something, you do it. Not necessarily well, but you do it. If you can't "execute" a proper strike from issoku-ittou no mai, then you need a LOT more practice and your journey to 1dan is going to be a bit long. :)

Screw around doing a bunch of stupid stuff? What do you exactly mean by that? Kurukuru-pa kote? So if shodan is the first real step, then why can't the first step you land on be infinitely big? Try new things, play around. You can discover some cool things on your own like that. You combine that with the info that sensei/coaches give you and I think that this makes you a complete kendo player. You have a lot more fun too.

Tim

edit-typos

[mingshi]

TBF,

Argh. Something wrong with the wordings huh? I hate quoting dictionaries, because it feels like people can't read. This is originally from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:



irregular (RULE) adjective FORMAL
1 (of behaviour or actions) not according to usual rules or what is expected:
"Releasing the goods without an invoice is most irregular."

irregularity noun [C][U]
something which is not correct or acceptable:
"The inspectors found several irregularities in the business accounts."
"The irregularity of (= The lack of rules for) English spelling means that it is easy to make mistakes."


Weird adjective
very strange and unusual, unexpected or not natural:
"He was sitting alone by a window with a weird contraption on the bench in front of him."
"Her boyfriend's a bit weird but she's all right."
"That's weird - I thought I'd left my keys on the table but they're not there."
"There is nothing to rival the weird and wonderful things that come out on the streets at carnival time."


Weirdo noun [C] plural weirdos INFORMAL DISAPPROVING
a person who behaves strangely
"What did he mean by that? Weirdo!"

By "irregular" and "weird" I meant something that is not done as the norm. What is done as a norm is a statistical fact, and not a comment.

BTW, according to the backcover of the Book of 5 Rings, by reading it will make you a better businessman, and not a great Samurai. So read it before you comment on its usefulness.

--------------------------
Hyaku,

Its going back up but mostly females.
??? That's a bad sign???

--------------------------
As for all,

On reading the situations of Kyu-Dan grading gaps in different countries, I keep wondering if it is the prolonged gap that makes some of you think "Shodan=Master"...

To exaggerate a bit, I'll take Hong Kong (or maybe 20 years ago in other countries as well) as an example. The first grade you can go for is Shodan. You can take it after you start Kendo. It's a beginner's grade. If you have shodan it means you are a recognized beginner in Kendo, and not anyone who has "mastered the basics". Just to differ yourself from those who does not practice as regular as you do.

The above might have result in "Instant Blackbelts". But hey, if Shodan blackbelts are beginners, I don't see why people shouldn't have it in a few years' time. The "6-1kyu then Shodan" grading system IMHO actually further mystified the "Shodan=Master" misconception.

In addition to that, you cannot simply compare the grading gaps with other martial arts. They are incompatible. In Kendo is not even a belt, it's just a piece of paper to be rolled and kept in the storage.

[TheBraveFencer]

Mingshi:

Your use of the dictionary is great and all, but dictionaries say nothing about connotation. And the connotation of those words normally lean towards the negative side of things, at least here in the US anyway. The definition of "weirdo" even points out its INFORMALLY DISAPPROVING, and "irregularity" is "something that is not correct or acceptable" So do you disapprove of nito and jodan, and is it not acceptable or correct to use them? You could have easily used "different" or "unique" in place of "weird" and "irregular" and still would have just as easily gotten your point across. And as for being the norm, jodan and nito ARE normal styles derived from older techniques, but are not as popular or widely used as chuudan, and while that's what you may have meant to say, that's not how it came across. You could have just said that chuudan is the norm (which should be obvious anyway, as everybody starts off in chuudan, thus making the statement that "nito and jodan aren't norm" redundant because it is common knowledge that chuudan is the most widely used kamae anyway).

And about the Go rin no Sho:

I've never read the book, nor have I seen the back cover. I just used it as an example, sorry if you got your pantyhose in a bunch over it. And just because it only states that it will make you a better businessman, who are you to say that one couldn't draw out an application to kendo or any other aspect of one's life from reading it? That's called thinking outside the box, and people who can think outside the box are normally rewarded for that ability, and in kendo it is no different.

And as for belts and shodan:

I think that people use the comparison to blackbelts and shodan because it gives those who aren't familiar with the term something to equate it to. While the skill level between a blackbelt in karate and a shodan in kendo may be different (relative to their respective arts of course), most all of the Japanese martial arts are based around the same system of ranking. So while we as kenshi may not have a belt signifying our rank as shodan, the rank of shodan is equivalent to a first degree black belt in karate or judo, in terms of rank or title only, not necessarily skill. This shows, too, in the difference of rank to become a sensei in karate and kendo. Karate (I think) once you reach the black belt level you are "qualified" (or so they say) to be a sensei and teach others, while in kendo you need to be at least yon-dan (aka fourth degree black belt) to begin teaching (at least here in the US).

[Confound]

Mr. BraveFencer,

Pantyhose in a bunch? May I suggest that you be a little less sexist, unless you wish to be skewered on the barbs of my keyboard, like misterkurukuru...

c

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by samurai999

You have implied one of my points. Basics should be discussed and stressed IN DETAIL at kyu level. That is what I thought they were for. If you learn them quickly? Kudos. If you don't have them or have a hard time learning them, you will have a long journey to 1dan. There are lots of so called 1dans that pass every year that hit like baseball players (and give concussions) and can't even fumikomi.

And you have made one of mine. See, I'm talking about the reality of the shodan level, and you're talking about some fantasy.

Now your next statement, what exactly do you mean by that? [snip description of hard practice schedule]

I meant exactly what I said. Your experience is not the standard one. Most adults who are going for shodan are not on their dojo team. Nisei kids who have been in the dojo since age 3 are a different story (sorry if it seems I'm assuming a history for you, it's just an example).

Also, what exactly do you mean by "executing"? If you execute something, you do it. Not necessarily well, but you do it.

By execute, I mean the standard sports-cliche execute. You know what you need to do, you may be able to do it occasionally in practice, but when it's important (a test, a shiai) you need to execute. Which means "do it well under pressure". Ya know when you watch a shodan shinsa, you kinda expect that they get ki-ken-tai-ichi on all 3 of the fumikomi men in kiri-kaeshi? That would indicate some "mastery of the basics"? Might happen with 1 in 10 candidates.

Screw around doing a bunch of stupid stuff? What do you exactly mean by that?

Check out the threads where Old Warrior is asking for advice for an idea. Novices have been instructed in the basics, they know that ideally they are looking for that nice straight men, but it's not getting them the results they want. So they end up shucking and jiving and whatever in an attempt to tag the aite. Eventually they find themselves in a yondan exam where all the judges are looking for is a nice straight men (preceded by that teensy important bit where you broke the aite's kamae). It all comes around.

[Old Warrior]

"Check out the threads where Old Warrior is asking for advice for an idea. Novices have been instructed in the basics, they know that ideally they are looking for that nice straight men, but it's not getting them the results they want. So they end up shucking and jiving and whatever in an attempt to tag the aite."

There is a certain ignorance/arrogance to your posts that I find amusing. You have never seen my Kendo or attended a class in which I have participated. Like the "Amazing Kreskin" you opine and pontificate without the slightest bit of evidence to support your conclusions. Last time I checked, nobody appointed you the
"Keeper of the One True Kendo Spirit". Curiosity expressed in an appropriate manner should be welcomed. Only small and insignificant minds mock those who show up and do their best.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I apologise, that was out of line.

Neil

[Ares2907]

You can walk into almost any dojo in any country and see evidence of what Neil is talking about.
I can see where the other points of view expressed come in, but almost exclusively they are being expressed by beginners. It's significant, I think. I'm not insinuating that they're not as intelligent as anyone else, what I am saying is that there is a certain amount of kendo wisdom that comes only through years and years of experience. You can know this stuff intellectually, but the real understanding of it comes in time, almost by osmosis.
You may have opinions on what your level of experience may mean. When someone with vastly more experience tells you something different, you're not making them look wrong by using the 'no I'm not, you are!' argument.
Take it on board, think about it. Chances are you won't really understand it for a while yet. God knows there's a heap of stuff that I don't understand about kendo yet.
Do all the bendy, tappy shitty kendo you want, but be under no illusions that at some stage it's something that you will have to leave behind in order to progress.

[Hyaku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mingshi
[B]TBF,

Its going back up but mosty Females
--------------------------
Hyaku,

??? That's a bad sign???

--------------------------
Not in the least. Its about time you showed some of these male pussys where to get off.

Saying things like Kendo is too severe is a laugh a minute.

Hyaku

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by TheBraveFencer
Mingshi:

I think that people use the comparison to blackbelts and shodan because it gives those who aren't familiar with the term something to equate it to.Karate (I think) once you reach the black belt level you are "qualified" (or so they say) to be a sensei and teach others, while in kendo you need to be at least yon-dan (aka fourth degree black belt) to begin teaching (at least here in the US).

I understand and I perhaps identified with this equation many years ago.

What can I say? After many years in Japan and after taking and passing a lot of dan grades ones attitude changes. Hopefullly nearer to the Japanese traditional attitude towards gradings and hopefully to convey the message that will put people on the right track and true arttitudes towards what we really get out of our Budo.

Last week I received my master divers certificate. But its the same routine. The proof of the pudding is in how many dives you have done how hard they were and the experience you gain etc. Not in the certificate you receive.

Hyaku

[moocow65]

who really cares what rank you are? to me, it's all about how much you understand kendo (i.e. basics, waza, ettiquette, etc) and how "good" you are. me personally, for a person to pass the yondan test (yondan = sensei in US) i think the guy should have nice proper kendo with seme and all, but he better be pretty darn good too, cause a sensei has to not only teach by word, but teach by example too. how in the world can you teach debana kote, if you're too freaking slow to do it? i would have stopped testing at shodan but then i would be stuck in the 1-2 dan tournaments and people would think i was cheating, and plus it wouldn't give me the challenge i was looking for seeing as how most of the strong guys here are 3 dan+. 3 DAN 4 LIFE! maybe after 50 years of being a 3-dan, they'll give me the title of hanshi?

[TheBraveFencer]

Confound,

Sorry 'bout the pantyhose bit. Replace with some non-sexist comment with a similar meaning. But BTW, I don't know if the trend has come to Japan yet, but male pantyhose over here has started becoming popular (I don't wear them personally or anything, just saw it on some entertainment/fashion show segment), so it may be less sexist than you thought.

But what I really want to know is...

Anyone have any comments on my previous post? (besides the pantyhose) :p

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill


You have implied one of my points. Basics should be discussed and stressed IN DETAIL at kyu level. That is what I thought they were for. If you learn them quickly? Kudos. If you don't have them or have a hard time learning them, you will have a long journey to 1dan. There are lots of so called 1dans that pass every year that hit like baseball players (and give concussions) and can't even fumikomi.

And you have made one of mine. See, I'm talking about the reality of the shodan level, and you're talking about some fantasy.


Well, that is what people teaching are gonna have to work at then, isn't it? Getting better basics taught earlier. Bad basics taught when you first learn translates into crappy kendo when you get higher in rank. That is why people like yourself, Confound, etc are finding 1dan isn't really what it is supposed to be. At shodan, I think that you are supposed to at least know that stuff. If you are shodan and you get pulled aside by a sensei to completely take apart your style and relearn the basics from step 1, then what is the point of having it? That person should be kyu, not a yudansha. You have to know that stuff well. Then you build on that to make it better and polish polish polish.

So this brings to everybody one question. What is shodan? What does it mean to you? (Damn, this sounds like a pc GRE question) :D :D :D What should you know at shodan? From what Neil and crew are implying, nothing much.

And moocow had a good point. You don't just "say" to teach. You have to show that you can do it and do it well. If you can't then, well....

Tim

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Tim,

I think you have the wrong end of Neils comments

Shodan IS significant & its hard work to get to

BUT it is not the be all and end all of grades - that belongs in karate kid movies

kendo Shodan shows basic competance of the key techniques and their application (or execution depending on how badly you do it ;-). Until you get there you wont get taught anything more (getting there can be very hard work !).

Nidan is a better shodan & san dan shows a good level of ability to make techniques and have basic control of the contest

the grade bears little if any resembalnce to success in shiai apart from those whose basics are very good will tend to do well in shia as well. Thus you are going to see very different viewpoints in a forum like this where there seem to be a lot of younger guys for whom shiai is the main focus of their kendo - nothing wrong with that at all but it doesnt suit everyone, especially us older farts who started kendo as adults.

beyond san dan the style of kendo changes from basic technique (applied well) to more thoughgtful kendo (without losing the technique) - pressure, timing and control become more significant

You are a bit right when you say that what you LEARN (not what you are taught - thats a different thing) during kyu dan time will always have an impact so its better to get it right first. However learning doesnt work like that so you will always have to consider that your basic technique needs more work.

What is acceptable for sho, ni and even san dan may not work at the yon and go dan level. So it doesnt matter how long you are a kyu grade you are going to have to modify technique in the light of physical and mental development as you go

For me this endless challenge is a key motivator in Kendo - it will never be over, theres always something to improve on and thats great (bloody hell I must be daft) OK you get to batter people then go drink beer as well that is also a motivator ;-)

cheers

[samurai999]

Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin
Tim,

I think you have the wrong end of Neils comments

Shodan IS significant & its hard work to get to

For me this endless challenge is a key motivator in Kendo - it will never be over, theres always something to improve on and thats great (bloody hell I must be daft) OK you get to batter people then go drink beer as well that is also a motivator ;-)



You are right, shodan isn't an "end-all" rank. But, you shouldn't retool or relearn completely. It should be a constant add-on of skills and techniques with constant polishing. Once your basics are taught and you are given your shodan rank, you build off of that and develop your own kendo style. If your basics were taught incorrectly, then you're sorta screwed. You need to constantly overhaul your basics and don't expand as well. If you (not master) but show competence in your basics and you execute those basics very well, then your kendo flourishes when you are shodan.

If you start as an 8-10 yr old kid probably like what moocow or kurukuru did, then it takes usually one year per kyu over here in Cali. So most likely, 6 years at most to get to shodan. Me? I got it in half the time.. How valuable are those 3 extra years? VERY! Most adults or older HS kids usually work up to 1dan quicker, but they usually miss a lot of gradual development that the kids get. Note though that we (nor cal) have to test (shinsa) for each kyu level that we go for and we need consent by a sensei to skip a rank. It takes multiple sensei to do what I did which was a 5kyu to 2kyu jump. I guess I was basing some things on my own development path which is unusual compared to other kenshi.

Well, it's good to know some kendo customs don't change from nation to nation.. You know, a nice cold one after a hard workout... :D :D

Tim

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Ok I think we are broadly in agreement but with a few differences over organisation, practicality & semantics

There are very few UK kendoka who start as kids so most of us start in 20s or 30s & learning metaphors that work well with kids dont always work with older folks

I maintain that no matter how well you are taught, its your personal ability to learn that is critical and whilst in theory I agree that your shodan level should be stable - in Practise I find that it isnt - this is strikingly noticable between kids and adults

The need to breakdown and recosntruct could just be down to the learning experience - ive had both good and 'less good' teachers ;-) & I guess most westerners get the same. OTOH the kind of kendo you are doing at any atge requires different appraoches - again as an adult beginner I think you have to short circuit the process and this may be the reason

California is different (even my US buddies say that ;-) because it has such a high ex pat and immigrant japanese population so things are likely to be different anyway - Im curious to know if your study has been in Japanse (or descendant) or non Japanese run dojo (the PC of that question had me foxed for a minute ;-)

Ive been very lucky travelling for work & getting kendo in several countries & yes beer after practise is a common sight - except Northern California ;-))


And for those that take kendo' too' seriosuly I suggest more beer but not that naff american stuff !

cheers

[Hyaku]

I think taking Phils endless challenge and motivation all will find that Kendo is but a mere facet in the sword world.

People are talking of that big step of Kendo Shodan? There are many other steps such as Iaido, Battojutsu Kenjutsu that go towards helping us be a better Kenshi.

Reading Musashi brings a lot of it together. Its not so much a book of learning as being able to identify with what he says.

Speaking as someone who has taken and seen a lot of Shodan Shiken I can assure all that its a pinprick in the ocean. Might not feel like it at the time though.

I think the dojo attitude towords this is shut the hell up and get on with the training. So it is nice that everyone can have a rant about it.

It's when you have one foot on the rung of that ladder that you realize how far you may travel. Damn, it brought me half way round the world leaving house and home, and it still endless.

Hyaku

[samurai999]

Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin
Im curious to know if your study has been in Japanse (or descendant) or non Japanese run dojo (the PC of that question had me foxed for a minute ;-)

Ive been very lucky travelling for work & getting kendo in several countries & yes beer after practise is a common sight - except Northern California ;-))

cheers

My dojo is run by a 7dan Japanese-American. Go to the Palo Alto Kendo Dojo web site and you'll see. I'm in one of the pictures, but not of the sensei of course. I'm also the so called "rocket scientist" that is mentioned on the front page... :o

Norcal has breweries all around but Gordon Biersch is one of the better ones. Theres Fosters, Heineken, and Guiness as well sold at stores. Sapporo and Asahi Super Dry are drunk in mass quantities after a big taikai.. :D Budweiser is the cheap stuff that we get if we can't find (or afford) anything else. Or 40s. That is some really nasty stuff.

Hyaku, I think that so-called "big-step" to shodan is like a graduation from High school to college. You learn all of the basic math, science, whatever. Then in college, you review, learn more, get taught new twists and turns, you research and find your own calling. The difference being that kendo keeps that going for more than just 4 or 5 years.

Tim

[M.K. Kawai]

Looks like we're having a very serious discussion on Kendo here :cool:

MKK

[stephkendo]

Brave Fencer i agree lots of people have read Five Rings but how many have understood it?Thats where you seperate into those who have become better kenshi from reading it and those that brag that they have read it!

-x-

[kanyil]

umm...you guys take the dan thing quite seriously don't you?

people make shodan a bit quicker here in Asia, but nobody cares what dan you are. from observation, I think the sempais don't even bother learning your name until you're sitting with the senseis (i.e. Sandan and above). In fact, people under Sandan are treated just like beginners in my dojo.

either way I think kendo is one of those disciplines where, being umpteenth dan is meaningless if you don't have the stuff to back it up, as your relative level can be quickly gauged during jigeiko.

[Washington]

Well.. to answer the header of the topic.. People who take kendo waaaaaay too seriously... I think that those people who don't at least in some part take kendo way too seriously quit :) so that just leaves the rest of us freaks.

On grading.. something that hasn't been addressed here unless I missed it when comparing rank / age / time ... is mental maturity of an adult when compared to a young student.

~The older I get the smarter my parents become~

Heard that in my teen years and been cracking me up ever since.

I hope in a few years I'll be competent enough to start traveling around and attending practices all over within my federation and other's. :) That "rank" sounds tops to me.

[Kendoka 2000]

I think there is a difference in the in the understanding of Kendo concepts and Kendo waza. Understanding Kendo concepts or philosophy doesn’t require a person to pick up a shinai. This is one of the reason The Book Of Five rings became popular among business men in the 80’s. However, learning kendo waza does require picking up a shinai a time or two. But this does not necessarily mean you “understand” the deeper meanings of Kendo or what Kendo should be teaching. I see this a lot in the young “super stars” at the dojo with the fast hands and good waza, but feigned respect.the

[Kenzan]

Welcome to the forum!

And you are....?

And you train where?

Please introduce yourself!
:)

[Neil Gendzwill]

This thread is 3 years dead.

[taganahan]

it's alive!!!!

~taganahan

[runsyi]

My two cents on the "irregular" Kendo comments (which don't really count for anything because I'm just a beginner with a piece of paper ;)):
Don't do it unless you can take more punishment (physically and mentally) than you would normally receive doing chudan. I saw a gal doing jodan in Kyoto and the sensei were especially hard on her. I think because of her choice to do jodan. If you can handle then more power to you.
And about the rank comments (which I know are old)... my sensei always says, "now you are qualified to do Kendo at X-level." To him rank isn't about "wow, I'm experienced now," or "now I'm sensei level," it's more "now I have to step it up to this level." Besides, isn't Kendo not supposed to be about rank? Isn't that why we don't wear belts?

[Kenzan]

Holy cow!
We thought you were dead!
Whoo-Hoo!
Runsyi's bacccccck!
Wheeeeeee!
:D

[runsyi]

Holy cow!
We thought you were dead!
Whoo-Hoo!
Runsyi's bacccccck!
Wheeeeeee!
:D

Not dead, just working. Almost the same thing.

[Paikea]

She looks almost the same as when she stopped talking to us, doesn't she?

[Hisham]

She lives in Honolulu, that in itself is a pretty good reason not to be a regular of this forum :D

[satsumaruma]

Something to do with being shark bait?

[Mr. T.]

it's alive...ALIVE! (http://www.sneakerfreaker.com/images/frknblog/1158294925alive.jpg)


:D

(sorry couldn't help myself)