Is his death penalty a just?

[LNGUYEN]

After read this, I am just stunned. This is so harsh and.... What "peace upon you" it is.http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1734776,00.html

[Old Warrior]

After read this, I am just stunned. This is so harsh and.... What "peace upon you" it is.http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1734776,00.html

My only comment to you is, was it worth sacrificing one soldier's life to turn the country over to a people of this mindset?

[Fuzzie]

Yes that is incredibly harsh!!

[Commander]

here here!

[LarsCW]

Yes it sure is harsh but it's also one of the laws that soceity lives by how harsh it might be.

Should it be changed.

In my opinion, Yes but then I'm neither a Muslim nor Christian nor have I ever set foot in this country or spoken to one of it's inhabitants to have one of them explaining to me why such harsh law should excist.

So before we would have something like this clear and before the judge have sentenced it would be too early to judge about this too I think.

[Eiliries]

The death penalty is wrong, unnecessary and harsh under any and all circumstances.

[mistabushido]

The death penalty is wrong, unnecessary and harsh under any and all circumstances.

Agreed. Men don't give lives, we shouldn't take it either.

[bullet08]

The death penalty is wrong, unnecessary and harsh under any and all circumstances.

tell that to the people who's little children were kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed. yes.. death penalty is unnecessary.. lethal injection is too good for such people. wasting bullet is even more worse.. hanging takes too much time. any convicted child molestor with positive id should be hung, drawn and quatered and fed to pigs.

tho, for this specific case with convert to different religion, it seems rather harsh.

pete

[ScottUK]

tell that to the people who's little children were kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed. yes.. death penalty is unnecessary.. lethal injection is too good for such people. wasting bullet is even more worse.. hanging takes too much time. any convicted child molestor with positive id should be hung, drawn and quatered and fed to pigs.

tho, for this specific case with convert to different religion, it seems rather harsh.

peteIn full agreement... 100% :)

[Wes Nazo]

"We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said. "It is an attack on Islam."

Right. That makes a ton of sense. Of course we cannot pass judgement because "all cultures and religions are beautiful" or some bullsh*t like that.

[Commander]

A question for fellow Brits:

Do you think the death penalty should be enforced in Britain?

[Ignatz]

tell that to the people who's little children were kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed. yes.. death penalty is unnecessary.. lethal injection is too good for such people. wasting bullet is even more worse.. hanging takes too much time. any convicted child molestor with positive id should be hung, drawn and quatered and fed to pigs.

tho, for this specific case with convert to different religion, it seems rather harsh.

pete
And if you do it in the open air market the crowds can cheer and slobber all over each other. What a wonderful society we will have then.
Hope you recognize the sarcasm. Barbarism begets only barbarism.

[Manuka]

and which is crueler, death, or life in a cage ?

[Manuka]

Aaaah rats, Ignatz here we are again. As I am in the Philly region we should suspend the posts and debate this over beers somewhere.

[Ignatz]

There is no debate. Advocating execution on the grounds that it is humane is stupid.

[Manuka]

There is no debate. Advocating execution on the grounds that it is humane is stupid.

I guess you are correct on the "There is no debate." part as you are as closed minded on this as the animal rightists are with theirs.

You are also obviously a person who places little value on freedom also.
Enjoy the zoo.


"Give me liberty, or give me death" Patrick Henry - March 23, 1775

[Ignatz]

Sorry kid, I'm not interested in being part of your intellectual masturbation. Some things are just too moronic to even consider them. It sounds to me that all of your points of reference are things you have read or heard in school, sitting around with your little friends trying to outdo each other in how smart you are. Go out and get some frame of reference based upon real experience and you won't try wasting time with bullshit.
You want to insult me with your little jibes about freedom and feeble little high school attempt to liken me to animal rights extremists? Good luck kid. You certainly have the freedom to be stupid and you are exercising that freedom now. What do you know about the struggle for freedom you little twerp? Nothing at all. What have you done in your entire miserable life to advance the cause of freedom? I dare say not one thing. Patrick Henry my ass. When you are ready to sacrifice everything for someone else's freedom then talk.
I could be wrong and, if I am, then tell us what your background is. How many murderers, rapists, child molestors, criminals of any kind have you ever met? How many prisons have you been too? How many criminal trials or investigations have you taken part in? What do you personally know about the criminal justice system in America?

[LNGUYEN]

Sorry kid, I'm not interested in being part of your intellectual masturbation. Some things are just too moronic to even consider them. It sounds to me that all of your points of reference are things you have read or heard in school, sitting around with your little friends trying to outdo each other in how smart you are. Go out and get some frame of reference based upon real experience and you won't try wasting time with bullshit.
You want to insult me with your little jibes about freedom and feeble little high school attempt to liken me to animal rights extremists? Good luck kid. You certainly have the freedom to be stupid and you are exercising that freedom now. What do you know about the struggle for freedom you little twerp? Nothing at all. What have you done in your entire miserable life to advance the cause of freedom? I dare say not one thing. Patrick Henry my ass. When you are ready to sacrifice everything for someone else's freedom then talk.
I could be wrong and, if I am, then tell us what your background is. How many murderers, rapists, child molestors, criminals of any kind have you ever met? How many prisons have you been too? How many criminal trials or investigations have you taken part in? What do you personally know about the criminal justice system in America?


Oh Men, some body just unleash the old dragon. :shocked:

[Commander]

Some people do get too uptight about things.

[Ignatz]

Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room.

[Kokoro]

A question for fellow Brits:

Do you think the death penalty should be enforced in Britain?


In SOME circumstances, yes, I think it should. only when the evedence is 100 percent, or the suspect did something unforgivable.

[LarsCW]

In SOME circumstances, yes, I think it should. only when the evedence is 100 percent, or the suspect did something unforgivable.

There should not be a death penalty in the European Union.

We do not have the right to take the life of others in my opinion.

We judge these monsters for what they do, rape, murder, etc and what would we do then?

Kill them?

Doesn't solitairy confinement for life be a better punishment?

They can't behave human so they won't have to interact with humans only the 4 walls of the prison.

Is this a humanic way of treating them?
Do I care?
Was their action humanic?

I think we as a soceity that calls itself humanic and peacefull, eventhou we are far from that at most points should not kill.

Sure a soldier kills because he/she is fighting in a combat situation but this is in my opinion one of the few reasons where it should be allowed.

Same for police officers.

But to kill someone that already is in custidy to me is barbaric.

I must add to this that I don't know the reasons why some countries have choosen for the death penalty so I'm only letting you know it from my side.

[Ipp-on Ipp-off]

There was a radio interview a while ago here in the Netherlands with a Professor of law. He was asked the question if jail sentences should be shortend in the Netherlands. And he said offcourse they should, because modern day punishment has shifted from being physical , like torture , killing etc. to being mental. I think his words where punishment of the soul. This actually sounds a lot more harsh then any old physical punishment.
I'm not sure I agree but I think it's an interesting viewpoint.

[Neil Gendzwill]

What do you personally know about the criminal justice system in America?I don't know much about the US system, but I know a little of the Canadian system. A good friend of mine is a lawyer, and he used to be staunchly for the death penalty. Still is, in principle, but after over 20 years as a lawyer he's seen so many errors in the system that he can't condone the penalty because of the large possibility of killing the wrong guy. So this has caused me to rethink my position. Plus as I get older I get more liberal, in some sort of reverse pattern to everyone else. When I was 20 I was slightly right of Attila the Hun, now I'd probably get yelled out of the room if I tried to argue politics with most Americans.

Heard a thought-provoking comment from a comedian the other day - in many jurisdictions in the US, it's tough to get elected without advocating for the death penalty. So if Jesus Christ were alive and running for office today, would the Christian Coalition folks vote for him?

[Kapplow]

tell that to the people who's little children were kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed. yes.. death penalty is unnecessary.. lethal injection is too good for such people. wasting bullet is even more worse.. hanging takes too much time. any convicted child molestor with positive id should be hung, drawn and quatered and fed to pigs.

tho, for this specific case with convert to different religion, it seems rather harsh.

pete


bullet you are the man

[Rurouni Kenshin]

He was asked the question if jail sentences should be shortend in the Netherlands. And he said offcourse they should, because modern day punishment has shifted from being physical , like torture , killing etc. to being mental. I think his words where punishment of the soul. This actually sounds a lot more harsh then any old physical punishment.
I'm not sure I agree but I think it's an interesting viewpoint.

What about the pathetic bastards that actually think its cool to go to jail so they have their 'war wounds' to show when they get back. I'm talking about the hoodlums that live for the sole purpose of making other peoples life miserable. The wannabee gangsters traveling in packs, beating the shit out of you just for looking in their direction. I think theres way more of those asses walking around here then actual coldblooded serialkillers and rapists. I for one am tired of calming down and forgiving. I was always taught that eye for an eye is not the option. Guess what; I'm blind now....... I'm fed up with taking my friend to the hospital or being cornered by 25 guys, having to dodge bats and chains, knives to my throat or being pinned down and forced to watch a girl-friend being beaten up. Thank god nothing has happened to me for a while (*knocks on wood) but next time some one comes for my eye, I'm going home with his head........:mad: cuz being nice and reasonable got me nowhere with those people.

If we start locking up people for life with the birthrate we are at now, we'll soon run out of space and end up living on prisonplanet.

[Ignatz]

. . .modern day punishment has shifted from being physical , like torture , killing etc. to being mental. I think his words where punishment of the soul. This actually sounds a lot more harsh then any old physical punishment.. . .
One of the first prisons in the U.S. was established by the Quakers in Philadelphia and they termed it "Penitentiary". A place to be penetent, where you spent your time in solitary confinement to examine youself and your evil deeds and, hopefully, to become self aware and able to be a part of society.
Over the years we have shifted to a model that emphasizes punishment and warehousing. We no longer believe that anyone can change. Sad.

[Kapplow]

One of the first prisons in the U.S. was established by the Quakers in Philadelphia and they termed it "Penitentiary". A place to be penetent, where you spent your time in solitary confinement to examine youself and your evil deeds and, hopefully, to become self aware and able to be a part of society.
Over the years we have shifted to a model that emphasizes punishment and warehousing. We no longer believe that anyone can change. Sad.

good point but I believe that their are some exceptions, like child molestors.
No trial

no jury

no therapy

straight to execution

[Ignatz]

good point but I believe that their are some exceptions, like child molestors.
No trial

no jury

no therapy

straight to execution
I sure hope nobody ever falsely accuses you.

[samurai999]

Well the way that the judicial system works (ie make their client look as not-guilty as possible or make the opposition look as guilty as possible) I'm not sure what to think here, but I am still for the death penalty. We just had a couple of executions.

1.) A former Crips gang leader (ie founder) who killed ppl at a convenience store execution style or in cold blood. This was in the late 70's. He was sentenced to death in the early 80's i believe. The case for the defense was that he was reformed. He wrote childrens books (i have heard this soo many times it is actually sounding like a broken record) helped the community, and embraced God. Snoop Dogg (a rap star) was at a "let him live" protest outside the correctional facility where the person was scheduled to be executed. The case for the prosecution and the family members is that their family members will never be brought back. They have been suffering for 30 years. Their lives will never be the same and it was a living hell. They wanted some closure to the whole ordeal. They had ample evidence to convict him on murder in the 1st degree and it was argued that the witnesses against him were setting him up and they wanted the gang for themselves.

2.) A senior citizen (near Sacramento, CA) who 30 years ago killed in the same manner, but had accomplises do his dirty work (ie he was the mastermind while he was in jail for a robbery). The associate(s) shot one person point blank in the face and the other 2 execution style. one escaped death and lived to tell the tale. The reason for keeping him alive was the same and the reason for executing him was the same.


You guys figure those out.

Tim

[Ignatz]

Tim, the problem with the "closure" thing is that it really does not happen. It remains a festering wound that never heals. Now, if someone were to rape and/or murder one of my loved ones i can assure you that my initial feeling would be to kill them. Me kill them, not ask society to do it for me. I can also assure you that if I did kill them it would not result in any closure for me, some things do not go away.

From a practical lawyerly point of view the crips guy made a major error in seeking commutation of his sentence. He says that he changed in prison but at the same time denied any guilt. Compare this to Tammy Faye Tucker in Texas who admitted the crimes she committed. Pat Robertson and the District Attorney who prosecuted her co-defendant both asked then Gov. Bush to commute her sentence to life without parole because she had profoundly changed. Bush made fun of her.

It's a hard question, and unfortunately for some people, with no simple answers.
john

[Ignatz]

The woman in Texas was Karla Faye Tucker, I guess the Pat Robertson thing made me think of Tammy Faye Bakker the televangelist who escaped prison for living the life of Riley on money stolen from the ministry because her husband fell on his swword to save her.
If anyone cares, sorry.

[Kapplow]

I sure hope nobody ever falsely accuses you.


I've been falsely accused before. I believe everone has at some point in their life. IMO thats where karma comes into play. My accusers got a full dose it.

[Kapplow]

I'd also like to add that I'm only 23 years old. My position on this subject has changed many times before and I'm sure it will change again. . People change just like the times. The older you get, the wiser you get. I'm sure you can relate Ignatz. With me, it seems that when I was younger I was more of a idealist. But as I get older and learn more of the ways of the world I'm becoming more of a realist. Kinda like Neil-sensei but opposite.


I hate taking too long to edit your post and having to re-type and remember everything yhou wrote. Damn

[drizzt]

tell that to the people who's little children were kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed. yes.. death penalty is unnecessary.. lethal injection is too good for such people. wasting bullet is even more worse.. hanging takes too much time. any convicted child molestor with positive id should be hung, drawn and quatered and fed to pigs.

tho, for this specific case with convert to different religion, it seems rather harsh.

pete
Hit the nail on the head.

This case, yes its way overboard, but its not my country. I dont tell toher countries how to run themselves, and i dont want them telling us how to run ours...

[ahmed61086]

If someone is a murderer, rapist, child molester, ect, why waste millions of dollars keeping them alive, when we can cleanse the society of their existence for free(or close to it). If you take life, then you should be prepared to get your life taken from you. If you rape a women, you should die. Rape a child, die. Ect.

As for my opinion on the Afgan case, I am a Muslim, so you probably wont like my views on it. Ill keep the details to myself.

But plz, why let a man live if he takes life, so that maybe we can reform him? Plz, that is too hit or miss, plus a waste of time even if it works, because by that time, they wont be of use to society anyway.

[Neil Gendzwill]

With me, it seems that when I was younger I was more of a idealist. But as I get older and learn more of the ways of the world I'm becoming more of a realist. Kinda like Neil-sensei but opposite.Whoah. What makes you think that conservative==realist and liberal==idealist? The mantra of many college-age conservatives, objectivism, is very much an idealistic philosophy and is every bit as blind to the realities of human nature as its idealistic opposite, communism.

[Kapplow]

Whoah. What makes you think that conservative==realist and liberal==idealist? The mantra of many college-age conservatives, objectivism, is very much an idealistic philosophy and is every bit as blind to the realities of human nature as its idealistic opposite, communism.


So are you saying that both conservatives and liberals are idealists?


can you elaborate some more?

[Neil Gendzwill]

So are you saying that both conservatives and liberals are idealists?Absolutely. Take the two extremes. Objectivists believe that the individual is the ultimate ideal, that the most competant person is also the most moral person and that therefore that regulation of business is unnecessary because these competant, moral people will always take the long view and do what's best for everybody by doing what's best for themselves. Communists beleve that the group is the ultimate ideal, that nobody is better than anyone else and therefore that you can distribute wealth based on need rather than ability and that a) those contributing should be OK with that and b) those using won't abuse it.

Neither philosophy recognises reality.

[Kapplow]

I'm a dry sponge thirsting for knowledge. Thank you.

[Lloromannic]

It is my view that all murders should be punished by death and that executions should be considered murder.

[LarsCW]

It is my view that all murders should be punished by death and that executions should be considered murder.

Kinda in the way of someone murders someone and having some kinda drone disintergrating them on the spot:P

Would be problematic having a malfunctioning drone then

[bullet08]

Barbarism begets only barbarism.

yes, and i totally agree, however, i also believe in punishment fitting the crime.

as to if someone kills my love one, or do anything to harm them? police better catch that sob before i get to him. even then they better keep him locked up tight where i can't get to him. i will hunt him or her down like a rat, and apply the amount of horror that he has put up on my love ones, and kill 'em.

closure? i doubt there will be a closure, but i will sure as hell track them down and kill them fully knowing that i will be punished by the law of this country and i will gladly be killed according that law if that's the punishment that i will receive. after all, i will be tracking down and killing that sob with full intension of seeing this thing through with detailed plan as to how much pain i will inflict on that scum.

as to this individual who has decided to keep his religion even if the punishment of the land is excution.. well, as far as i see it, it is harsh, however, it seems that individual understands the consquence of his action and the punishment that is waiting for him. it's not like the law didn't give him option to convert back to islam if he wishes with condition of not being punished for what they call a 'crime'. rather harsh punishment for such a 'crime', but it seem that the person will rather die a christian then a muslim. it's his life. the court has given him an option and it's up to the mercy of the court to decide what will happen.. life sucks for some people i guess.

pete

[LarsCW]

I think you'd never be able to get closure, killing the person or seeing the person killed or locked up.

The fact is that you lost your loved one and you'll never get that loved one bad. This person sentenced you for life without parole and nothing will ever change it.

Sure I would wanna beat such a person up when something like that happend but I don't think I would even be capable to kill someone but then I've luckily never been pushed to that point.

I have earlier this tread already mentioned my idea about the death penalty and even thou it might sound pleasing to some there will always be that question which always be comming back.

What if ...?

The ones that are pro death penalty would most likely talk from the point of would you be for if we could guarantee there wouldn't be made any mistakes or the eye for an eye talks or others saying it's cheaper.

But what about the people that have to kill these sentenced murderers making them murderers in a way.

Thy shall not kill.

How is it possible to have a death penalty in a country with so many christians?

Could somebody please explain this to me?

[Kingofmyrrh]

Hit the nail on the head.

This case, yes its way overboard, but its not my country. I dont tell toher countries how to run themselves, and i dont want them telling us how to run ours...
Past disagreements aside, this is a bit of a one-sided statement. I concede that you personally may not tell other countries how to run their business, but the US as an entity is engaged in this activity to a greater extent than any other nation on earth. You should hardly be surprised if people have an opinion about the US as well.

[bullet08]

But what about the people that have to kill these sentenced murderers making them murderers in a way.

Thy shall not kill.

How is it possible to have a death penalty in a country with so many christians?

Could somebody please explain this to me?

murder and killing are two different things.

as for christian thing.. two words.. spanish inquisition. christians love good blood letting as does any other religion.

pete

[Lloromannic]

murder and killing are two different things.

as for christian thing.. two words.. spanish inquisition. christians love good blood letting as does any other religion.

pete


Murder being the malicious killing of a person aforethought. Executions fit that description.

[drizzt]

I dont agree with the US doing it either. Im an isolationist to a large extent. I dont think the US needs to stick its nose in a sovereign nation's buisness unless its a direct threat to world stability.

I consider nuclear/ biological weapons build ups, open acts of aggression against us or allies, or widespread famine/internal warfare/etc. IF assistance is requested to be justified reasons for sticking our nose in other countries affairs, and then the degree im willing to go along with varies. Internal policing etc.....thats not our buisness, just like its not anyone elses buisness to try to influence our elections and law making.

I hate this world government crap EU seems to be pushing for....

That was to kingofmyrh, and wasnt meant as an assault, just a clarification of my opinion on what the US is doing as well...

[LarsCW]

murder and killing are two different things.

as for christian thing.. two words.. spanish inquisition. christians love good blood letting as does any other religion.

pete

The Spanish inquisition was acting in the name of the pope but this is not really something that belongs in this conversation I think because it's a different timeframe.

[bullet08]

Murder being the malicious killing of a person aforethought. Executions fit that description.

i seriously doubt that excutioner will have any malicious thought about killing the condemned. or much of aforethought into pulling the switch.

pete

[Ignatz]

The Spanish inquisition was acting in the name of the pope but this is not really something that belongs in this conversation I think because it's a different timeframe.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our four...no... Amongst our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise....

and nice red uniforms.

[bullet08]

The Spanish inquisition was acting in the name of the pope but this is not really something that belongs in this conversation I think because it's a different timeframe.

ok. how about this.. separation of church and state? "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". so country full of christians have nothing to do with country having excution.

pete

[Ignatz]

It is my view that all murders should be punished by death and that executions should be considered murder.
All extremists should be taken outside and shot.

[LarsCW]

ok. how about this.. separation of church and state? "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". so country full of christians have nothing to do with country having excution.

pete

I understand this is in the foundations of the country but still the people making the laws are christians which would result in the laws they make.

[Ignatz]

A moment of seriousness from me.

Recently, U.S. President George W. Bush said he was deeply troubled by the case of Abdur Rahman, who an Afghan judge said this week had been jailed for converting from Islam to Christianity and could face death if he refused to become a Muslim.

"It is deeply troubling that a country we helped liberate would hold a person to account because they chose a particular religion over another,'' Bush said on Wednesday.

"We have got influence in Afghanistan and we are going to use it to remind them that there are universal values,'' he said.

Consider for a moment that this is the same George Bush who, as governor of Texas, signed the death warrant for Stanley Faulder who was executed in 1999. It is not so much that Faulder was one of the 150 or so people that were executed by Texas while Bush was governor but rather that Faulder was a Canadian citizen.
This is important because there are certain international treaties in effect that deal with such matters and the governor and the state of Texas completely ignored them. Canada was essentially told to butt out of our affairs, ain't none of yer damn business.
As I said earlier, I pesonally would want to kill anyone who harmed my family or loved ones, and might actually do it but, that aside, I don't think the death penalty is a good thing. The U.S. is only fourth, I think, in executions, following Chna, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Not really good compny.
What I can never understand is the complete inconsistency of the current government. While it is true that foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, this is wrong and it makes all of us look bad in the world.

[drizzt]

The Spanish inquisition was acting in the name of the pope but this is not really something that belongs in this conversation I think because it's a different timeframe.

"Those who cant learn from the past are doomed to repeat it". Never dismiss historical examples........they tend to repeat themselves on a regular basis.

[Hai_hai]

After read this, I am just stunned. This is so harsh and.... What "peace upon you" it is.http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1734776,00.html
This law was probably put into place by the Taliban. I don't know why it's being supported by a non-Taliban government.

[drizzt]

Consider for a moment that this is the same George Bush who, as governor of Texas, signed the death warrant for Stanley Faulder who was executed in 1999. It is not so much that Faulder was one of the 150 or so people that were executed by Texas while Bush was governor but rather that Faulder was a Canadian citizen.
This is important because there are certain international treaties in effect that deal with such matters and the governor and the state of Texas completely ignored them. Canada was essentially told to butt out of our affairs, ain't none of yer damn business.
I would tend to side with the idea "your in our country, you abide by our laws and punishment". Kind of like that kid in singapore a few years back that got caned. Everyone was up in arms "you cant do that to an american citizen, hes protected under our laws etc...". He went to another sovereign nation and commited a crime there, they have every right to punish him(aside from that i think public whippings like that are a vastly more effective form of punishment.....) under there laws.


Could you imagine the anarchy if no nation could inforce its laws, and ALL of its laws, against foreign nationals? we would have jihadist's, and every other group of radicalists who hate the US, over here walking around killing people as fast as they could. I mean, if your only going to prosecute them in there own country(or by its laws), whats to stop say, Norh Korea, from passing a law making the murdering of american citizens legal?


While I would assert that the US has some reason to stick its nose in in afghanastan, since we fought a war that installed the current government for them..., I dislike the idea of the US or any other nation making laws for another country.

[LarsCW]

"Those who cant learn from the past are doomed to repeat it". Never dismiss historical examples........they tend to repeat themselves on a regular basis.

I fully agree with you on not dismissing historical examples but I don't think I was doing that there.

What I was trying to say was that those were other times.

I look at those times the same at what the ayatola did to Rusdi for writing his book.

I think religious leaders should stay with the spiritual side of life or atleast only do good in life. Just like Pope Johanes Paulus did alot for the world even thou this ment that Breznjev sent a hired assasin after him.

I don't follow any specific religion and see myself as a spiritual person but things like the previous pope has done for the world have great respect from me.

[LNGUYEN]

All of those incedents make me wonder is Islam a peaceful religion? Are they only "peaceful" to the "Believer" and totally "unforgiven" to the "Nonbeliever". Of course, there are moderated and hard line. Who is following correct Islam?
I think it may be another 100 years for the Muslim to find their own way of Islam to prove to the World that they are peacful.

[Ignatz]

Reminds me of the time when a judge asked me what my position was on having God in the courtroom.
My response was, "It depends Judge, are we talking about the vengeful, wrathful old testament god or the loving, forgiving new testament god?"

[bullet08]

when i was growing up in korea, or even in flushing.. which wasn't all that different from seoul.. things were rather black and white. more than likely because i was a kid and i didn't know any better which i'm sure i still don't. things such as a kid mouthing off an elder in public.. or not being polite enough to greet elders on the street will usually result in nice session of beating which will lead to his ass being dragged back to his house to inform his father of his behavior leading to further beating by his father..

barbaric? yes.. but i think my peers who grew up in that time are much better person for being beaten to pulp on occations.

definitely old testament god.

pete

[Ignatz]

when i was growing up in korea, or even in flushing.. which wasn't all that different from seoul..
pete
The 1950s and 1960s in blue collar Irish neighborhood wasn't much different. I think it is easy to say "spare the rod. . etc" but my belief is that type of upbringing is no good. I always thought that if I couldn't outsmart my kid and had to resort to violence there was something wrong with me. Maybe I just experienced too much real violence in my life.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

... but things like the previous pope has done for the world have great respect from me.

Aha, I hope you dont mean the things like condemning the gay and the disapproval of using condoms.....

[LarsCW]

All of those incedents make me wonder is Islam a peaceful religion? Are they only "peaceful" to the "Believer" and totally "unforgiven" to the "Nonbeliever". Of course, there are moderated and hard line. Who is following correct Islam?
I think it may be another 100 years for the Muslim to find their own way of Islam to prove to the World that they are peacful.

How long did it take christianity to get this far.

Keep in mind that Islam is about 5 centuries behind.

[LarsCW]

Aha, I hope you dont mean the things like condemning the gay and the disapproval of using condoms.....

I was hoping nobody would bring up that part:P

[Neil Gendzwill]

The Catholic church has a lot to answer for, and they're still getting it wrong. JPII continued the policy of women as 2nd class citizens, ignored the realities of the AIDs epidemic in the name of birth control, brushed the crimes of his sexual predator priests under the rug and just generally moved the church nowhere good, all with a kindly smile and a charming manner. The new guy so far doesn't look any better. That's part of why I describe myself as ex-Catholic (bitter, of course - there are no other kinds).

[Michiyo Akimoto]

The Catholic church has a lot to answer for, and they're still getting it wrong. JPII continued the policy of women as 2nd class citizens, ignored the realities of the AIDs epidemic in the name of birth control, brushed the crimes of his sexual predator priests under the rug and just generally moved the church nowhere good, all with a kindly smile and a charming manner. The new guy so far doesn't look any better. That's part of why I describe myself as ex-Catholic (bitter, of course - there are no other kinds).


I believe the Catholic church calls Ex-Catholics Heretics do they not?
Good thing they don't burn folks for that anymore.
As for me, I'm just a plain old Unwashed Godless Heathen.
:laugh:

[Rurouni Kenshin]

That's part of why I describe myself as ex-Catholic (bitter, of course - there are no other kinds).

Funny; when people ask me about my religion I answer I was raised Catholic; I'm a used-to-be...........

I came to think over the years that The Vatican is Maffia-Central.....

[LNGUYEN]

Lucky you, they don't execute you for turn your face against Catholics.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Lucky you, they don't execute you for turn your face against Catholics.No, but my mom wasn't happy when I refused to have a Catholic priest at my wedding.

[LNGUYEN]

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raouf

So it is like "Once Muslim, forever Muslim". Sound like gang slogan? You better think deeply before deciding to convert to Muslim. There is no turning back. Any Muslim brothers out there can help me think otherwise?

[Michiyo Akimoto]

I try to aim for the middle road in all things.
But it has always confounded my as to why some humans will murder other humans simply because they view goodness and love slightly differently than others.
It seems indeed a paradox.

[Ignatz]

Lucky you, they don't execute you for turn your face against Catholics.
No, they just excommunicate you and condemn you to everlasting perdition.
Luckily I'm an Irish catholic and none of this matters to me. That is why the Presbeterians hate us, we have fun no matter what happens.:silly:

[ahmed61086]

Ill do my best lnguyen. Well, this is a very deep and scholary subject, even though it might not seem to be by the untrained eye.

I disagree with what Abdul Raouf said, even though he is a cleric and such for one reason. We know as muslims that a person can do their best to insult God (the insulting is the crime), but God will not be humiliated. There are passages in the Quran which state that the nonbelievers do not harm god, but they only harm themselves, if they but knew.

The reason for the death of an apostate is not because they humiliate god. It is because they reject the truth and when they reject it, they insult god and the Nation. Apostacy is the same as treason. In all countries, Treason is punishable by death. In Islam, being an apostate is a treasonous act. (one must understand that muslims believe that Islam is the absolute truth) and to reject it, and spread lies is unforgivable and cannot be allowed or tolerated, and is more than treason to the country, but treason to the whole Islamic Ummah(nation) and much more importantly, a treason against God.

So a question is needed. Is treason to a country more deserving of punishment then treason against God?

I am not saying that these are the only reason for this law, there is much more to it. Some say that it cleanses the society of these people who would only cause mischief. There is also a school which doesnt believe in this law at all (a very small minority). Unfortunately I am not the most knowledgable person on this subject, but I know a little bit.

The main theme though is that apostasy is treason in more than one way. And through close analysis of Shariah Law(Islamic law based on Quran and Hadith), it is punishable by death.

[Paikea]

No, they just excommunicate you and condemn you to everlasting perdition.
Luckily I'm an Irish catholic and none of this matters to me. That is why the Presbeterians hate us, we have fun no matter what happens.:silly:We're already guilty, might as well make the best of it. Pity me, I married a Mennonite.

[Ignatz]

We're already guilty, might as well make the best of it. Pity me, I married a Mennonite.
When my son was buying his new (at least to him) truck, we went to the mennonites. Several generations of horse traders. They are not allowed to cheat you, they drive a hard bargain but will negotiate. Of course also good to buy horses from, not snazzy hunters or jumpers but good well trained horses.

[KhawMengLee]

A muslim wanting to convert here in Malaysia is a serious issue. They won't kill you but make it hard for you to do so. And you may be ostricised by the muslim community. Trying to convert muslims here is a biiiiiiiig no no. You can be charged and sent to jail.

Islam is a faith that is on the verge of evolving. They are also at a time when they feel that they are being attacked on the whole.

Take Christianity when Islam was in its golden age. Islam was civilized, tolerant and culturally superior. Yes, that was a few centuries ago, but during that time, accepting parts of Islamic culture and science would get you killed as a heretic.

A Christian converting then would be excommunicated and killed.

One day, I hope that the muslim nations will find THEIR cultural revolution and evolve into a culture that have the freedoms we have today and yet retain their identity.

[KhawMengLee]

Well...it depends on the point of view.

To us, no.

To the nation he is betraying(in their eyes), yes.

What is the fate of traitors (in most cultures)? Death.

Take this like the case of John Walker Lindh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh).

To him, his conversion of Islam and joining the Taliban was right.

To the soldiers(US) he fought against, he was a traitor.

He was abused by his captors and if there was no media attention on him, I would not be surprised if he had an 'accident'. Even so, was his treatment right/just?

[LarsCW]

I wanna respect peoples believes but when it comes to killing someone because they feel they need to convert into another religion.

I don't understand it.

I do understand the points you bring on, I just can't accept people being killed for religious reason.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I do understand the points you bring on, I just can't accept people being killed for religious reason.

I can't accept people being killed for any reason... I also don't understand peoples needs to screw one and other, harm eachother etc. Why cant we all just get along. Call me naive if you want.
Then again, I believe the word naive (sp?) is made up by those people that do screw others over. Why is being nice called naive?

[bullet08]

i think the guy walked free according to yahoo news.

pete

[Ignatz]

I think they decided that he was insane and woould not prosecute him. Did they let him go? They were worried that he would be attacked on the street.

[Justin]

I think they decided that he was insane and woould not prosecute him. Did they let him go? They were worried that he would be attacked on the street.

yeah...i read that clerics told the people to kill him if he was freed

[Paikea]

When my son was buying his new (at least to him) truck, we went to the mennonites. Several generations of horse traders. They are not allowed to cheat you, they drive a hard bargain but will negotiate. Of course also good to buy horses from, not snazzy hunters or jumpers but good well trained horses.Oh yeah. You should see the woman in markets where haggling is the thing - scary. They never, ever throw anything away, and wait years for the chance to dig into the stash and pull out exactly what you need.

And wheat. They know way too much about wheat.

On the topic, I believe the US has granted a request for asylum and moved him out of harm's way.

[Paikea]

Whoops, now CNN has pulled that story and it's the Italians who >may< be offering asylum. Reporters going wild...

[Commander]

Whoops, now CNN has pulled that story and it's the Italians who >may< be offering asylum. Reporters going wild...

Never trust the Italians.