Dealing with a Fencer on a Kendo vs Fencing match?

[Kendoka_JD]

Hello everyone..Im not sure if this belong here..but:

My friend who does Fencing has declared a toe-to-toe, Kendo vs Fencing match with me. I thought it would be a fun thing to try out, so I accepted. If this match does happen soon, can anyone give me any useful hints or strategies for this match?

I've been thinking about a few..like maybe sweeping his Epee/Saber, then go for a kote-men.. or if he attempts to do a thrust, I could try a hiki-men or a hiki-kote.

So, and tips or strategies, anyone?

[MikeW]

Well first of all.. how experienced is your friend and how experienced are you? Another question... how is the scoring or winner to be determined and will there be judges that have enough knowledge in both arts to score?

[Shugyo]

There are several issues to consider. First, are your experiences (duration, skill level, etc) similar? If you are a low-dan grade and he/she is rather experienced, this may be an unfair test of skills. Additional, what kind of protective equiptment will you be wearing? A Fencer's eyes are protected more completely than a kenshi's, for logical reasons. If you use a shinai against the less solid fencing gear, you coud conceivebly influct serious injury. Also, who's scoring? What is a point? How long will you match? Can you more lateraly instead of linearly like a fencer. Consider all this before you compete.

[KhawMengLee]

If you want to make it work...put him(fencer) in bogu and you put on the fencing gear. That way he can strike you with the saber and you can strike him with the shinai.

[Kendoka_JD]

About our experience, he is just a little bit more experienced than I am, so hes been in fencing for about 10 months and I have been in Kendo for 8 in-a-half months, and its not much of an advantage to him, and not a disadvantage for me.

Scoring: This we are still trying to decide on who will judge or not, and as for the scoring point, we will have 2 rounds.. and first round will be First Hit(Fencing), second would be to get the points by the targets on the body(Kendo), that way, we can split the way we get points. On both rounds I will go linear, so It can be more fair for him, or he can do dimensional on both, that is IF he can actually do it.

Protection: Now this might be strange but He thought of putting my extra bogu(not gi & hakama) on top of his fencing gear(without his helmet, of course). For protecting my eyes, I put some type of Clear Plastic covering on my mengane, and I can see pretty well and its quite durable. If the "bogu on-top-of the fencing gear" thing isnt good, then Ill probably let him use my spare tengui to protect his head, plus he can borrow my kote wrist protectors.

*And This wont happen after a while of planning and discussing..since I know it is complicated..

[Michiyo Akimoto]

If you ask me,
I find the whole concept a rather bad idea, and pointless.
What is it supposed to prove?

[Martin S.]

The only way to do this silly ( but probably fun ) thing safely, is to
do what Khaw said: switch gear. The unauthorized-piece-of-plastic-
men-covering plan is REALLY dangerous. If you switch equipment, you
can both have at it without holding back or worrying about killing
each other.
Oh, and good luck. If you´re both equally fit and talented, my money says he´ll kick your butt as he will have advantage in speed and will have
trained matches longer than you.

Best regards, have fun.

[Omnis]

Nobody would go to battle with a rapier, anyway. There is no historical correlation/comparison.

[Martin S.]

But a one-on-one duel is hardly a battle, and duels were frequently fought
with rapiers. I don´t think anyone would defend the historical value of this
match, it´s just fun to pretend to kill your friends.

Best regards.

[WhoIsRight]

This is one of the Gayest and Most retarded Thread I ever seen in my
life.

[David]

Well, I suppose that when Kendo is reffered to as Japanese fencing, this type of thing would eventually come up. If you ever figure this out, you should video tape the match and post it on here. It might make for a few shits and giggles.

[RamenMan]

That sounds like fun, I would like to see that if you do happen to record it.

[yojimbo 13]

there is a video of this on you tube the fencer wins tho

[yojimbo 13]

here is the sight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ST1wRzfgmI

if that doesnt work go to youtube and search for kendo vs

[Genya]

Sounds really fun.

I don´t know how it is with everyone else but for me thinking strategies beforehand is totally useless. I´m sure when the match starts you will forget most of what you planned. Just hit when you have a chance.

Let us know how it goes.

[xvikingx]

This is one of the Gayest and Most retarded Thread I ever seen in my
life.

Wow, not just gay (with a capital G) but also retarded.

Sounds like it would be a fun thing to do between friends. I agree with Kwan swap gear. The plastic guard sounds kind of sketchy.

[kurisu]

Since neither one of you have any real skills with less than a year training each, I don't see it being much of a match. Can you do hiki waza well with people in your dojo? If not, I don't think you will have much of a chance doing it on anyone else. It takes years of training to be able to perform good waza. My advice would be to attack his weapon. Smack the shit out of it as hard as your can, i'm sure it can't handle the kind of abuse you shinai can deal out, you'll probably bend it good, and thats what you are trying to do, then it would be a cake walk to just go straight in with a nice men.

[King of Blades]

A couple of people said this idea is "gay" and retarded." it's not. While it may not prove anything (since kendo and fencing are totally different arts with their own strengths and weaknesses), it could prove interesting. But i agree that without good waza, it will not be very much of a match. At the same time, bashing the hell out of his sabre is kind of beside the point of this challenge, isn't it? Personally, i favor kendo, but i think your fencer friend will win. 2 months of training can make more of a difference than you think. Another thing to consider is this: have you faced multiple people with different styles of fighting? if you're only accustomed to fighting the particular style you have fought before, then you will most likely get creamed by something alien. If you don't know how a fencer (and a more experienced one at that) fights, then you are doomed to failure. the same goes for your friend. So my advice: go watch some fencers at a training hall (if you can find one.) You'll be better prepared.

[inner game]

I think the idea itself is fine -- it's an openness to possibilities and a chance to learn some stuff!

As other's have stated I wouldn't expect to really get any sort of valuation besides a personal perspective - esp as you guys are both beginners you are presenting to the other a thing you aren't really versed in yet

One major problem (and this comes up a lot) is the "mismatch" of purpose (which alters the equipment and technique)

Your buddy is, almost certainly, currently involved only in "olympic" competitive sport fencing...this is a distillation of fencing into a sport and the equipment is designed specifically for safety - so much so that the weapons are not referred to as swords as they aren't

Now, there is a style of fencing that most (and the funny thing is, I find it to be worse among westerners) folks don't even know exists is called "classical fencing" -- classical fencing can be more of a "reconstruction" of combat with heavier weapons, more robust protective equipment, one fences in the round - not on a strip, one can use an off-hand weapon (if the match so dictates), the 'quality' of the touche' is graded more rigorously
These are the guys that you will see at the salle (the Western Fencing equiv of a dojo) in blacks and leather equipment (the traditional white uniform most folks are familiar with are b/c before electric equipment, chalk was used to leave marks so the touche would leave a mark)
There is even a form of classical fencing called "mensur", which is illigal in many countries (but still practiced, but way underground) wherein live blades are used and the object is to scar the opponent [If you see an older german person in a salle who is fencing at a high levle, look for "railroad tracks" -- scars on the cheek and scalp]

It might be best, esp as you are beginners, to have your dojo and his salle get together and discuss this -- if his salle has classical fencers as well (some do, some don't) they could provide some good advice and probably protective gear (instructor's gear also tends to be heavier that competition gear b/c they are getting whacked a lot -- often incorrectly whacked, which can be painful)

Either way, I think it is a good dialog with your friend...I tend to find Western Fencing to be horribly misunderstood..even by it's own culture!

While, I think it's OK to think about various techniques so you have options you consider. I would caution about becoming rigid tactically.
For instance, Western fencing has a whole body of technique concerning engagement of blades, so don't expect your pal to be shocked by techniques where one attacks the opponent's blade.

I often find that the "combat effictiveness" evaluation, while fun to muse about and makes great conversation over Gins & tonic, tends to miss the true value of these practices.
I often muse that these are games of generals, not soldiers -- by that I mean, the lessons they teach (and, to some extent is why they are somewhat abstracted) are really about intent and approach...about timing and space and distance and pressure and when you commit to a line and when you don't. Who is controlling the tempo? how are they controlling the engagement? Can you take the opponent out of his/her "zone" so that they have left themselves vulnerable? can you play to your strengths, but can you also deal when the game goes to your weaknesses?

One place I've found these traditions to help immensley -- courtship and marriage...seriously, if there ever was a place where you need to "be on your game", that's a huge one!

[Old Warrior]

...Your buddy is, almost certainly, currently involved only in "olympic" competitive sport fencing...this is a distillation of fencing into a sport and the equipment is designed specifically for safety - so much so that the weapons are not referred to as swords as they aren't...

I don't know where you got this notion from. If you have ever held a real dueling epee, it is almost identical in feel and form to a French gripped epee. Moreover, if you were to unscrew the plunger switch at the end of a sport epee and fence - you best be wearing armor. The blunt tip (about 1/8" in diameter on the end of a tapering 3'+ metal blade) would go through your body like the proverbial "hot knife through butter". I also wonder if you have ever seen the damage that can be done when one of the blades breaks and the action can't be stopped. Let's just say - we really differ on this point.

[inner game]

Mostly from fencing! :D

I think you misunderstand my point (and one problem may be that the term "classical" fencing is sometimes applied to "dry" fencing as well as classical reconstruction fencing)

yes, sport fencing weapons are dangerous (hey, my inner elbow is black & blue most of the time during epee training) which is exaclty WHY we have tech inspection before bouts, why we bend relief into our blades, why the women folk wear chest protectors, etc
but isthere some distillation in sport fencing as a sport -- sure! the flick, the judging of a parry not really needing one to clear the line, the abolishment of the fleche' in sabre (I'm "captain flunge" ;) )

but yeah, classical fencing equipment tends to be heavier -- consider, for instance classical sabre v a sport sabre or a live schlager

[inner game]

I don't know where you got this notion from. If you have ever held a real dueling epee, it is almost identical in feel and form to a French gripped epee. Moreover, if you were to unscrew the plunger switch at the end of a sport epee and fence - you best be wearing armor. The blunt tip (about 1/8" in diameter on the end of a tapering 3'+ metal blade) would go through your body like the proverbial "hot knife through butter". .

Don't get me wrong, I certainly agree that epee is the most dangerous of the 3 sport weapons due to it's rigidity and limited allowable relief (we do disagree on one spec though 3+ft, IIRC FIE blade length is maxed at 90)

[Sekhmet]

Heh, I actually had the same offer recently from a fencing friend.

The swapping gear idea is great! I hadn't thought of that at all. Of course it'll have to wait until I get my armour … Or, I thought, how about keeping the kit on and swapping weapons instead :) That should prevent anyone getting bigheaded about how great they are with their respective discipline.

Seriously, I think the experiment would be interesting, and as long as it's between friends I don't see any harm in it. Since this thead was started a while ago - how did it go? We want the pictures! :)

[neko kenshi]

Its not really a match between kendo and fencing, because what you guys will probably end up doing won't much resemble your respective arts, given your inexperience, but it could be fun, so long as you're safe about it. I think the fencer will win though, because it seems to be closer to natural tendencies, so it's probably more beginner friendly.

[effectiveg]

It certainly could be a fun idea, but I'd (whoops, just noticed how old the thread is) suggest (or would have suggested ;) )
to bring along experienced pople from your respective dojo/salle to facilitate the process and analyze the outcome


Also, If your pal is a novice, he is probably involved in foil. Sabre would probably be a better overall counterpart




hey, my inner elbow is black & blue most of the time during epee training


The great Carnac says....you are....foil (or "fencing lawyer as we say :p)
Foil gets it in the elbow
If you were sabre, you'd get it on the outside of the arm
that, and you are a fleche-kabob (I keed)




I don't know where you got this notion from. If you have ever held a real dueling epee, it is almost identical in feel and form to a French gripped epee.

They actually vary somewhat, in a couple of critical areas.

In composition A sport-fencing epee is required to have a minumum flexibility (FIE rule m.16.5) and the blade composition must meet Appendix A's steel composition specifications

A "live" epee may have some 'suppleness' (not so much "flexible" as "supple") as steel is wont to have, but is critically more rigid


Formwise, in sport fencing, one slightly "relieves" the blade (in epee less than 1cm so one does not use the relief to get over the bell-gaurd unduely) so that the thrust of the blade in transduced as flex

whereas a dueling blade does not have that and you have a true "point-in-line"




Moreover, if you were to unscrew the plunger switch at the end of a sport epee and fence - you best be wearing armor.

The button IS part of the safety enineering (the shape and attachment means are controlled and inspected). If one modifies the weapon to be ouside of spec...it really isn't a sport fencing Epee anymore, it's a pointy piece of metal that simply isn't allowed on the piste -- as that point is may even be a considerd a sword :scared:
much as a soda can with the top torn off isnt really good to drink out of anymore

I also wonder if you have ever seen the damage that can be done when one of the blades breaks and the action can't be stopped. Let's just say - we really differ on this point.

while injuries certainly do happen (such is the nature of sport) FIE rule m.1 really calls attention to the primary mission of (specifically m.1.3) "The weapon shall be so constructed that i cannot normally injure either the user or his opponent"

It's specifically BECAUSE we are poking each other with metal things that quite a bit of attention is paid to engineer safety into the equipment and to practice it in the salle -- mensur insantiy not withstanding :cyclops: / :dead:

It's also why I urge the gentlemen who are "crossing traditions" be very careful, the gear, while designed for safety, when used out of context (much like the above example of removing safety equipment from an epee) can be seriously compromised

but, provided you get some experienced help -- HAVE AT! ENJOY! REPORT BACK!

[Theodore]

While all of you were conjecturing I set up a match between a godan and a skilled WMA fencer (rapier) who has an Olympic style fencing background from college (epee) plus 20+ years fencing experience since then. End result, kendo strikes, being a dui tempi (a cut is two periods of fencing time) maneuver, lost almost everytime to the fencer who used stesso tempo (simultaneous parry-riposte, see Capo Ferro) to close out the kendoka. Of six touches, there were 3 for the fencer, 2 ai uchi (simultaneous kills) and the only clean kendo kill was a tsuki (single tempo).

For safety's sake, both were dressed in the other's armor.

It proved NOTHING, btw.

[effectiveg]

It proved NOTHING, btw.

yeah, it's not really going to prove anything -- even in western fencing there are a variety of styles not to mention weapons which leads to two sayings
-It takes two lifetimes to master fencing
-The answer is on the piste


just as it is with rock climbing and sea kayaing, folks get soooo concerned with "bladework" (the work of the hands, the paddle, the blade of the weapon ) they forget that the magic is in the feet and the ranging.
Often in fencing, by the time the "action" starts, the point is already over (the victim has been "ranged and read" as they say) -- it makes it frustrating for many to watch because it's about subtlety
Like trend analysis, by the time the general population sees it...it's already past

[effectiveg]

hmmm, th more I think about it - "if anyone was trying to "prove" something -- fencing really isn't theplace to do it.

much like scientific research, if you try to find "the answer" you wind up with more questions

for every fleche there is a stop-thrust waiting, for every beat there is a bind.

It's very much like Chinese Tai Chi in thatt the student often worrys so much about the "movement" they forget to look at the breathing and energy and rhythm

what these things can provide is insight, the oppoentnt isn't the enemy - the "opponent" is a mistake amplifier -- guess who makes the mistakes

[caboose12321]

there is no point in the match first of all the sabre, foil or epee is 2 to 3 times faster then a shinai which make "smaking the shit out of it" rather hopeless. Also if you did manage to hit it congratulations you have just hit a piece of steel with something made out of bamboo and leather do that about 200 more times and you may be able to bend it the only disadvantages the fencer has is it will be harder for him to parry any of your strikes with a foil though it will be easy with a epee or saber, and fencers are less agressive which is as much of an advantage as a disadvantage

[Kenshi]

1st, Caboose, read this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_the_dead)

2nd, im willing to go toe-to-toe with you, the loser being the first person to cry, fall over, beg for mercy, bleed, etc. This will sort the question out once and for all.

[Josh Reyer]

So, essentially this caboose fellow has gone through the archives digging up long dead-threads on kendo and fencing, just to wax bravado about fencing's superiority over kendo?

Someone needs a girlfriend.

[imouto]

So, essentially this caboose fellow has gone through the archives digging up long dead-threads on kendo and fencing, just to wax bravado about fencing's superiority over kendo?

Someone needs a girlfriend.
So it seems.

And he/she doesn't have a thorough knowledge of fencing.

[tango]

So, essentially this caboose fellow has gone through the archives digging up long dead-threads on kendo and fencing, just to wax bravado about fencing's superiority over kendo?

Someone needs a girlfriend.

wise in the ways of the force you are!

+rep!