Kenjiutsu

[LarsCW]

I did a search for kenjitsu and in the video it mentions something about shinkage-ryu. Could someone that knows more about this please explain something to me.
I thought kenjitsu was only with the katana and in the back they are also training with other weapons or are those part of this ryu?

http://www.vidilife.com/index.cfm?f=media.play&vchrMediaProgramIDCryp=B3BBDF12-8969-4080-BDA0-8

[Kitsune]

it looks like Aikido with weapons to me

[LarsCW]

http://www.yushinkan.com/old/UK/pages/ukshinka.html

Thru a Dutch site I was set thru to this which explains some more, interesting reading but it doesn't speak about other weapons but then this also is about the iaido side.

[PatientDaruma]

Shinkage-ryu is a koryu, old school, bugei, samurai fighting art. It focused on a number of weapons, the long and short swords, spear and halberd techniques, as well, If I remember correctly, yawara or taijutsu techniques, what would eventually be called jujutsu.

The shinkage-ryu is primarily attributed to Kamiizumi Nobatsuna (If I've misspelled the name, I deeply apologize) and was later expanded by the Yagyu family into the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. I'm pretty certain that both strains of the ryu are still in practice today.

Dave Lowry, the modern martial Way writer is a student of the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu.

[Mr. T.]

it looks like Aikido with weapons to me

There’s naginata on the background and no naginata in aikido. Only bokken and jo (although there are bo kata created by Morihei Ueshiba, never seen them though)


http://www.yushinkan.com/old/UK/pages/ukshinka.html

Thru a Dutch site I was set thru to this which explains some more, interesting reading but it doesn't speak about other weapons but then this also is about the iaido side.

This Shinkage ryu iaido branch isn’t mainstream Yagyu Shinkage, but a legit offspring. They are a part of the ZNKR, that’s all I know about them. Joris van Nispen runs Shinkage iai in the Netherlands. Nice guy and pretty good.

Lars, just contact him or one of his students (use their new site, the structure of the organisation has changed a lot).

[Villageidiot]

Please don't tell me their sparring with bokkens :tired: . Looks like another Mc Dojo to me

[Mr. T.]

Please don't tell me their sparring with bokkens :tired: . Looks like another Mc Dojo to me

No, they don't do sparring with bokken. They are a legit part of the ZNKR (one of the 16 iai koryu). There are a few other ryu with the name Shinkage in it, just because they aren't Yagyu doesn't mean they are fake.

[ZealUK]

There's no way that video clip is showing any authentic koryu.

I believe its from the "Chikara Dojo" which has been discussed at length in other threads and also on E-Budo.

[Mr. T.]

Please don't tell me their sparring with bokkens :tired: . Looks like another Mc Dojo to me

oops, sorry. I guess you meant the shinkage of the video.

[LarsCW]

There's no way that video clip is showing any authentic koryu.

I believe its from the "Chikara Dojo" which has been discussed at length in other threads and also on E-Budo.
You are correct about that, the reason I asked more about it was because of the many weapon types I saw.
Later I noticed who the poster was and then I started looking on the internet.

The funny thing is that Shofukan the iaido part is that comes up when I press on iaido at my dojo's website which interested me even more.

I'm generally interested in budo and would like to know alot about it ever since a yondan has been showing me some iaido when I just started kendo I've been intregued by it.

If any of you would know some more vids I'd like to know.

[Villageidiot]

Look at the comments as well, Everybodys amazed!! Nobody ever says such things of Kendo :mad:

[LarsCW]

I like this way of thinking http://www.yushinkan.com/disci_en.php

"...The difference between Shinkage ryu and most other ryu is that in Shinkage ryu the main goal is not to kill your opponent, but to eliminate him in the coming battle. However the higher goal of this ryu is to completely avoid any armed conflict, most of all by using superior tactics. These principals are clearly recognisable in the techniques used in this ryu. The initiative of commencing the fight is always in the hands of the opponent, without exception. Then the opponents techniques are used against him. Timing plays a crucial part in gaining victory."

[pgsmith]

Lars,
There are several versions of Shinkage ryu alive and well today, the video is NOT one of them. The video that you posted is of the Chikara dojo folks and their made up arts. Any relationship to actual Japanese sword arts is strictly accidental. :)

There are several koryu dojo in your part of the world. I encourage you to go and check them out in person. That's the best way to do it.

Good luck!

[Ren Blade]

The video that you posted is of the Chikara dojo folks and their made up arts.
Is that the same group that hosted that Sengoku Classic tournament?

[Fonsz]

Is that the same group that hosted that Sengoku Classic tournament? Yep they are, in a way if this is your world then I can understand that you think "never touched me".
Apart from the bad footwork and unwielding swings, I can understand why some people would prefer this to Kendo, Iaido or legitimate Koryu Kenjutsu. It's a bit like those role playing fights or the club where one hits each other on a parking lot with shinai's. :confused:
It's a league on its own would be my most positive comment. But for god's sake don't call it Shinkage Ryu or anything else for that matter. If they named it Kilgore Ryu then there wouldn't be problems and you could do whatever you want with any weapon that there is. You could even wear your tare over your do. The part where the fencer is having troubles is interesting to see. I would have thought that he would lunge, strike and that's it. But according to the text the fencer should be quite able to do his thing. Furthermore the bokuto "Ji Geiko" has I think nothing to do with the real thing. It is being treated as something casual. I don't think that this would be the case when both of them are holding a 1 meter long razor. I think that it would look different. But then again I never saw a death match, so I wouldn't have a clue what to look for. I have a feeling that the stuff that our good friend Scott from the UK is going to post here anytime is more of this.:nervous:

[JSchmidt]

He actually makes money of that crap?.

[LarsCW]

Thanks for clearing this up.

I'm interested in this all and I can see how easy it is to walk into some dojo like this when not knowing much about the art, even when being able to do a search.

How does the real shinkage ryu look like then?

There aren't any kenjitsu dojo's in Holland that teach this as far as I could see. I have seen there are 2 dojo's teaching shinkage ryu iaido, 1 in Rotterdam and 1 in Utrecht.

I don't know what the major differences are between kenjitsu and iaido and if someone that does know could explain.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't know what the major differences are between kenjitsu and iaido and if someone that does know could explain.They are just names, like all things Japanese there is a grey area.

Most people think of iaido as solo kata with a metal practice sword where you start and end with the sword sheathed, and inbetween dispatch a number of imaginary opponents. Furthermore, most people think of iaido as associated with the two most popular schools that teach it, Muso Shinden Ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

Most people think of kenjutsu as the practice of swordsmanship with a partner usually with bokken. This would consist normally of paired kata practice. Kenjutsu would be the sword-fighting curriculum of a koryu (old school), that school may or may not have additional material in its curriculum (such as empty-handed techniques, or other weapons like spear or staff).

Of course where it gets fuzzy is that you can easily argue that MSR and MJER are also koryu, and not only that but they both have paired kata practice. Furthermore most kenjutsu traditions also practice drawing and solo kata. Really it's much simpler/more correct to consider it all koryu, except with different emphasis. However with MSR and MJER where the people spend the vast majority of their time on the solo kata, it's a little easier to label what they do "iaido".

Most of the legitimate people practising koryu understand all these things. The ones practicing (mostly) iaido will say either they practice iaido or they will say they practice X-ryu. The ones practising what many would consider kenjutsu normally do not say that - they typically say they practice X-ryu.

So when someone posts on the internet that they are "taking kenjutsu", my red flag goes up immediately. If they say they are "studing X-ryu" then my red flag may or may not go up, depending on where they are and what "X" is.

[LarsCW]

Thank you for explaining this Neil.

I have a question for the ones that practise both Kendo and Iaido or kenjiutsu.

In which way do you think each art helps the other if you already think they do and which ryu do you practise?

Thanks in advanse

[Joris]

Dear all,

thanks for the free publicity and all :grin:... Lars, since you started this thread: Shofukan dojo offers the iaido curriculum to members of (or thru) your kendo club ever since Fumetsu stopped teaching iaido themselves. So that's why you jump to us when you press 'iaido.' (By the way: you jump to Fumetsu, when you press 'kendo' at www.shofukan.nl. Isn't life great?)

I agree with most of you that it is very hard to find an authentic dojo that offers Yagyu Shinkage ryu hyoho (= kenjutsu). Actually, this is only possible via Nobuharu sensei's Yagyu Kai in Nagoya, Japan, or Meik Skoss's dojo in the U.S., for example. There are a lot of groups who borrow the Yagyu family name to denote their school, which is all bull, even if they claim their xth headmaster received permission to do so etc. etc.. (No, I'm not even going to check out that video!) Only Nobuharu sensei's Yagyu Kai studies Yagyu Shinkage ryu and Yagyu Seigo ryu battojutsu, and they do so since 400 years. In fact, they established the darn thing!

It is true, however, that there are teachers who studied under the Yagyu Kai, received menkyo kaiden AND permission to teach outside the Yagyu Kai. This happened to the man who started using the name "Shinkage ryu" for his batto and kenjutsu teachings since the thirties of the 20th century, Kashima Kiyotaka sensei. It's those teachings that have reached us through Akita sensei and Matsuoka sensei, both from Nagoya, today. And it is this Shinkage ryu that is studied through the Netherlands Shinkage ryu Foundation (yes, our web site www.shinkageryu.nl will be translated into English soon! I'm sorry!).

Since Kashima sensei joined the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei at the end of his life, we are still studying ZenKenRen waza today. And that is why Shinkage ryu iaido, for instance, is now trained as koryu by a dedicated group of people in Japan, France, The Netherlands, Greece, Germany, the US, and the UK, besides their ZenKenRen iaido, and under Matsuoka sensei's guidance.

I hope this clears things up a bit, and shows that our "Shinkage ryu' has nothing to do with any Kilgore group whatsoever :cool:. Take care,

Joris.

[ScottUK]

I have a feeling that the stuff that our good friend Scott from the UK is going to post here anytime is more of this.:nervous:Nope. I don't have on my waterproof underwear so I will refrain from watching the vid. Maybe later when I get home I will be ready for the comedic genius and shinken-pitcher that is Mr Kill-em-all...

Hiya Joris...! Welcome to the chaos that is Kendo World... :D

[Mr. T.]

Hello van Nispen Sensei. Welcome, it's alway good to hear (read) from one of the higher ranked iaidoka in my country.

[Joris]

Hi guys, nice to meet you here, too. But... please don't call me sensei. I always insist that our Dutch students only say sensei to sensei, i.e. Matsuoka sensei. Moreover, in Japan, you will be adressed as 'sensei' only after 7-dan. It's funny how people tend to find someone they can address as sensei as soon as they enter a dojo of any sort :rolleyes: ...

Anyway, I totally agree with Neil's Red Flag theory. In Shinkage ryu, for example, the iai and kumitachi (kenjutsu) are still both part of the curriculum. In the early 20th century, it even had tameshigiri. I always talk about 'Shinkage ryu' as a whole and not any specific discipline from the curriculum.

Hope to see you all on the 3rd Dutch 'Murugai' Shinkage ryu seminar in Rotterdam on October 7 and 8, 2006!

[ScottUK]

Hiya Joris,

Does the kenjutsu element come from YSR?

Sorry - can't make the seminar - am in Paris with Iwami Soke - the dates clash again....

[Joris]

Hi Scott, everything comes from Yagyu Shinkage ryu, as it was performed untill the 1920's. In fact, I wrote some lines about the historical backgrounds. I'll give them to you next time I see you, either in Orly or Rotterdam!

[ScottUK]

OK cool - you coming to Brighton for the summer seminar or the European iaido championships?

[Joris]

No, I'm sorry. Too busy... Ganbatte for you and your friends!

[Nokori 3byo]

Thank you for explaining this Neil.

I have a question for the ones that practise both Kendo and Iaido or kenjiutsu.

In which way do you think each art helps the other if you already think they do and which ryu do you practise?

Thanks in advanse

Dear Lars, I will not attempt to answer your question as I do not, myself, practice kenjutsu. But I get the feeling you're curious about the nature of kenjutsu and iai.

Watching the following videos may be instructive:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6275742558608078525&q=katori+shinto

and

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8566157551057113966&q=katori+shinto

Here, you can see both kenjutsu and iai kata as they occur in the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryuu curriculum. It should be noted that the iai practiced here is somewhat different what people typically think of as "iaido." Also, the intro to the iai video curiously labels it "iaido" (I'd always been under the impression that TSKSR called its iai "iaijutsu.")

Anyway, this is one example of how paired "kenjutsu" kata and solo iai kata can appear as different parts of the curriculum of a single ryuha. The naginata clip is a treat too.

[Kenshi]

the problem with the name 'shinkage-ryu iaido' is that people immedietly associate it with 'Yagyu shinkage ryu hyoho [kenjutsu]' which is a completetly different thing. even now in the yagyu-kai (of yagyu sensei) the [yagyu] seigo-ryu stuff (the batto portion) is taught as something outside the 'proper' shinkage-ryu hyoho (as passed down from kamiizumi, seikishusai, etc). some people dont even practise it. and ive heard it said that in the entire member base only 4 or 5 people know all the kata. its definetly seen as something else. and people within the yagyu-kai do not, it seems, acknowedge 'shinkage-ryu iaido' with 'yagyu shinkage ryu hyoho' in any way.

to have avoided confusion, a name like 'seigo ryu iaido' would have been better... but who knew back in the 20s/30s that there would be a crazy budo/kendo/koryu phenomenom outside japan?

[Joris]

Even now in the Yagyu-kai (of Yagyu sensei) the [Yagyu] Seigo-ryu stuff (the batto portion) is taught as something outside the 'proper' Shinkage-ryu hyoho (as passed down from Kamiizumi, Sekishusai, etc). (...) To have avoided confusion, a name like 'Seigo ryu iaido' would have been better (...)

I totally agree. Even more so, because Meik Skoss, the most prominent student of Nobuharu sensei in the U.S., stated on another forum that people within the Yagyukai usually just speak of "Shinkage ryu" when they actually mean Yagyu Shinkage ryu hyoho. Besides, as was confirmed on that same forum, a clear distinction should be made between Yagyu Seigo ryu battojutsu (of which Nobuharu sensei also is the current headmaster) and Shinkage ryu as taught within the Yagyukai by Nobuharu sensei's father and later by Kashima sensei, outside the Yagyukai, since the 1930's. What you see now as "Shinkage ryu iaido" (associated with the ZenKenRen and mainly in Aichi-ken), are the different lines of Kashima sensei's students (and their students, for that matter), the most important ones fortunately still alive and kicking.