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**neron** · 17th June 2006, 03:08 PM

In my almost entirely uninformed opinion: If they are of equivalent skill strength and speed, then it depends on their individual style. For example, just for fun I fought a few of my friends just a little bit ago. One of these guys, who was just a little weaker than me, was a second degree blackbelt in tae kwon do, the other, who was about my strength, was a first degree, and they both taught classes in it. Well, we fought one on one several times, and I was pretty much beating them. Now I've never done any hand to hand martial arts, and haven't gotten in many fights, so I'm far from experienced. The only reason I did well is because I was way more aggressive than them, and their martial arts fell to peices while I attacked. On the other hand, another second degree blackbelt in tae kwon do (who is quite a bit stronger than me, and faster than I've ever seen) could easily beat the crap out of me. Now, if I imagine we were all the same strength, then I think the results would be similar. Becuase I'm so aggressive, I'd win against the two who don't deal well with it and try to keep distance, but loose against the person who can effectively manipulate it and is not intimidated. That probably was a pointless example. Anywho, you get my meaning.

**Anjin-san** · 17th June 2006, 03:12 PM

How do you make the distinction between martial art and boxing/wrestling? Where do things like krav maga and muay thai fit in?

**Penguin Rush** · 17th June 2006, 04:15 PM

Boxing IS a martial art.
It all depends on the person and nothing more. I've seen TKD masters beat boxers and kick boxers like hell before, and vice versa. On the average, a boxer will beat most MA on the amateur level. Why? Because of all the crappy Mcdojo, and because sparring is almost barred from martial arts dojos. Many people even believe that TKD is nothing more than back flips and useless fancy kicks. If you really fight head to head with someone that's very adept at it, you'd be amazed at TKD's power.

It all comes down to the person fighting. Not just how fast and strong you are, but how smart you are. A TKD black belt not being able to stop a mere "aggressive" charge is ridiculous. Then again, Neron just might be a strong fighter natrually.

There is, however, the greatest fighting style: Shaolin Soccer.

**MiChuhSuh** · 17th June 2006, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Seikei-san

Now I know these are like one of those Apples and Oranges, and those "VS" threads...but I just want to hear some of your opinions about this.

First of all how are boxing and wrestling not martal arts?

Now some would argue that because they are now modified to sports (they weren't always like that) that they aren't as lethal. Well let me ask those who say that, when was the last time you heard about someone dying in kendo with shinai? Or in an organized judo match?

Boxing and wrestling were both derived from military arts. I know the earliest military boxing was from Egypt and they used some sort of modified hand wrap (I believe with spikes) to lethalize the art. Several countries have their own forms of boxing but in basically every case it has roots in real, lethal combat. Many Chinese kung fu schools actually call boxing schools.

I don't know as much about wrestling, but I do know that both arts (bothing and wrestling) were used in the bare-hands fights to the death in Greece and later on in Roman gladiator matches.

Let me ask, would you consider Muay Thai and Judo martial arts?

**bobdonny** · 17th June 2006, 05:40 PM

I'm not sure i'd put either over the other,

It would have to depend on the context, environment and individual.

Also Michuh seems right from wiki on boxing and wrestling being a martial art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_art

**KHuang** · 17th June 2006, 06:03 PM

BJJ is the best hands down . is just like wrestling and judo but move finishing move . TKD is useless hands down . this has been proven many times

**MiChuhSuh** · 17th June 2006, 06:39 PM

only olympic/competition TKD, Korean government sadly compromised the effectiveness of the art for the sake of getting something in the olympics

That is why TaeKyon people hate TaeKwonDo, they say it's an insult to all Korean MA, which have really died out in the past 100-200 years

**Manuka** · 17th June 2006, 10:20 PM

Another voice saying both boxing and wrestling are martial arts. With equivalent skill a wrestler will always beat a boxer as the boxer cannot maintain distance and as soon as the wrestler gets a grip it is all over. The only chance a boxer has is if they are a power puncher like Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano who can take a person down, or stop their advance with a single punch.

I guess I can assume that Seikei-san meant the generally accepted TKD and Karate by Martial Arts. Both are strike techniques whereas Jujitsu and Aikido are more grappling techniques, and Judo a softer/sport version of a grappling technique. I would expect the grappling technique to win for the same reason as wrestling vs boxing. Once the person has a grip they can prevent furthur striking and the striker has no answer other than to strike without the opponent ever getting a grip. Yes from the TKD concept the leg muscle is far longer and stronger than an arm, but given the amount of use it is also far slower. Power is weight and speed, even a fraction of a second slower the grappler can grip the leg. So unless the TKD can strike faster then the opponents combined reaction time and anticipation, they will lose. The karate footwork with the rear foot placed sideways for power also makes a grapple possible.

Boxers tend to use feet parallel like kendo for faster movement,(look at the skipping for training) but still always lose to an equivalent wrestler.

Perhaps somone with a lot of experience in an Asian grappling art could comment on how good they are with finishing choke or pin holds, as simply throwing the striker will result in being struck again.

**Penguin Rush** · 22nd June 2006, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by KHuang

BJJ is the best hands down . is just like wrestling and judo but move finishing move . TKD is useless hands down . this has been proven many times

People like this have been called moron hands down. There is no best martial arts! Brazillian Jujutsu is incredibly effective, on an one on one match, but it isn't the best. BJJ's stradegy of getting your opponent on the ground is useless when multiple enemies are present. Another thing: martial arts are for self defense, anytime it becomes a sport, it loses its effectiveness.

Same goes for TKD. I don't know how TKD has been proven useless, but I'm sure the Korean Vietnam vets will tell you otherwise. I highly doubt that the Korean government would risk the lives of their soldier by teaching them TKD purely out of national pride over actual effectiveness. TKD masters had separate badges on them to indicate to other soldiers and officers that he was to be respected and protected. Many people believe that TKD is about the flashy kicks, hell no. TAE = kick, KWON = FIST, DO = art. That KWON is also used in the Korean word KWON Too, which is Korean for BOXING.

I would also love to see you fight an actual TKD master. Even olympic TKD uses powerful kicks and counters. Most people can't take a well timed kick to the head, and olympic TKD is all about that.

There is no such thing as a "best" martial arts.

**Hai_hai** · 22nd June 2006, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by Seikei-san

Martial Arts(not including kendo, because its unfair for sword vs hands) vs Boxing/Wrestling.
I've been wondering about this for quite a while, and my friend and I have had some short arguments about this as he IS a boxer.
He said, that a Boxer would always win because they can withstand more strikes, and their punches are powerful. Same with wrestling.

Now I know these are like one of those Apples and Oranges, and those "VS" threads...but I just want to hear some of your opinions about this.

I still kinda disagree with my friend, and Im with the martial arts on this.

It is apples to oranges. However, unless you have taken up boxing and wrestling and martial arts, you would know. The answer is it depends on the martial art and the height/weight/strength or the martial artist.
Otherwise, just watch older UFC videos (not the new ones) where there was a mix of fighters who maintained strict form in their respective martial art.

Not to make you seem like a wuss, but it sounds like you have never boxed. It's different than karate sparring (or whatever other martial art sparring) because you hit has to not only land for a point but land hard. This is where the real strategy of boxing comes in. You can't just throw a million quick but light punches and your opponent can also dodge punches. So these two elements can waste your energy. Now, you have to time your punches, throw feints, duck, aim low at the abs and ribs, aim high at the head, keep your distance but stay close enough to land a good punch, learn your opponents feints, avoid getting trapped on the ropes. Now, you see boxing isn't just a mindless free for all.

I like to watch boxing on ESPN, not the big time pay-per-view events. You see all these elements, but the game is a bit different depending on weight class. Lighter weight classes have boxers fighting quick through every round and you rarely see total knock outs. Heavier weight classes have boxers fighting quick in the beginning and real slow near the end and you'll see a couple knock-outs.

**Hai_hai** · 22nd June 2006, 01:15 AM