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    At the risk of having this thread 'locked' I feel I must raise my concern at censorship being undertaken on these forums.

    Over a year ago I wrote two articles which I duly submitted to the BKA newsletter in the hope that they would be published. The BKA always cry out for contributors so I thought I would write a few for them.

    The first was a nice piece extolling what a great time I had at a couple of seminars - this was published.

    The second was in response to a couple of bad ideas by the BKA (which have been duly dropped or severely amended - I make no comment) but this was not published. When I queried why I received the most horendous email from someone who I will not name because he does not frequent these forums to defend himself. When I pointed out the flaws in his arguments why my stuff should not be published ( and I did this in a most reasonable way because I hoped that my article could still be published) I was subjected to abuse. I will admit that I then indulged myself in some 'baiting' of this individual ( I know I know) and I contacted a certain UK MJER Nanadan Renshi who was equally appalled at the abuse I had received.

    Now personally I couldn't give a flying f**k at abusive language but I wish to draw all your attention to two things.

    In his rantings ( and I do not overplay this word) he said that the type of things that I had written were best suited to Forums such as ...and I quote...Kendo world Forums. I am not saying that it is right to rant about the BKA on these forums but a BKA official has personally told me to do exactly that.

    To my knowledge this individual has not been brought to task about his attitude - perhaps it is not my place to know.

    Please note, and hopefully there are some on here who will support this, I am far from being anti BKA. I actually think it is an excellent organisation.

    But I also think that its members must be allowed a voice and if they deny such on its own 'private' newsletter then where do members vent their frustrations. I actually think it is wrong to do this on open forums but what are the options.

    I also think open and honest deabte/discussion is preferable to censorship simply because that will only lead to a festering kind of resentment. Also how does any organisation grow unless it knows what people truly believe, what their hopes are?

    I suspect that this posting will be misinterpreted by the more anally retentive but I hope some will understand why I felt the need to say...

    Let's talk (so long as we do so in a reasonable manner).


    Yours, In sincerity

    Lee

  • #2
    well, there are 2 forums where there isnt so much of an international presence

    kendo-uk on yahoo groups

    www.kendouk.net

    neither of those are moderated by BU members (but they are modearated as all lists do these days) so in theory should be a better place if you really need to discuss things in the open

    but bear in mind the people yove alluded in your post to are easily identifiable so you might want to be careful in the words you choose !

    Really these are internal matters for the UK community, best dealt with that way (IMNSHO)

    best regards

    Phil..

    Comment


    • #3
      I locked that other thread because the fellow who started it clearly joined KW with an agenda, and it all seemed fairly petty and internal to BKA. If I'm out of line in moderating in that fashion, I'm sure Alex and Hamish will let me know. I normally keep a pretty light hand, just punting spammers.

      If more senior members want to discuss BKA internals, I suppose that's OK but I think it's extremely ill-advised.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by satsumaruma
        At the risk of having this thread 'locked' I feel I must raise my concern at censorship being undertaken on these forums.
        It is one thing to decry censorship by a government, a monopoly or an agency charged with a significant public function. A privately operated open forum can police itself as it pleases. If you feel aggreived take your free time reading elsewhere. I guess, I believe that the one who pays the bills and maintains the site gets to regulate its content. If enough people are offended, the owners will have to decide whether to change their editorial policy or risk falling into oblivion. In any event, the privilege to post in someone else's open forum should be exercised with dignity and restraint.

        Comment


        • #5
          I think you've entirely missed the point of what Sats was saying, Old Warrior.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin
            well, there are 2 forums where there isnt so much of an international presence

            kendo-uk on yahoo groups

            www.kendouk.net
            Phil..
            Phil, kendouk.net is not a forum as much as an information hub. Apart from exchanging letters, you cannot actually have a discussion there.

            There is the yahoo group, but I don't understand it's purpose, as discussion is discouraged.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JSchmidt
              Phil, kendouk.net is not a forum as much as an information hub. Apart from exchanging letters, you cannot actually have a discussion there.

              There is the yahoo group, but I don't understand it's purpose, as discussion is discouraged.
              info hub - ok i think i understand that

              but yaho group ?i dont understand that - its an open forum ???

              can you be specific - pm me if you need to ;-)

              cheers

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by satsumaruma

                But I also think that its members must be allowed a voice and if they deny such on its own 'private' newsletter then where do members vent their frustrations. I actually think it is wrong to do this on open forums but what are the options.
                I think Satsuma's point is clear, and i think it is true for any organisation that has a long term vision, as the KW "elders" pointed out, it should be discussed internally but the thing is here, this senior member of the BKA doesn't see it that way.

                Although i don't know the full story, according to what you said, i do empathise.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hisham
                  I think Satsuma's point is clear, and i think it is true for any organisation that has a long term vision, as the KW "elders" pointed out, it should be discussed internally but the thing is here, this senior member of the BKA doesn't see it that way.

                  Although i don't know the full story, according to what you said, i do empathise.
                  From Satsuramas public profile

                  Art and Grade:
                  Iaido -Yondan: Jodo -Nidan; Kendo - refuse to grade with the BKA

                  Im guessing here ;-) but I think he might also have an axe to grind, so without seeing what the 'contentious' text was its hard to say. Frankly Im not bothered

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    That is why i wrote:"Although i don't know the full story, according to what you (Satsurama) said, i do empathise". Which means my view is subject to change.
                    Although i don't train with partners my zanshin is still on

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin
                      From Satsuramas public profile

                      Art and Grade:
                      Iaido -Yondan: Jodo -Nidan; Kendo - refuse to grade with the BKA

                      Im guessing here ;-) but I think he might also have an axe to grind, so without seeing what the 'contentious' text was its hard to say. Frankly Im not bothered
                      Can see where you are coming from with this but actually ...No, I do not have an "axe to grind".

                      When I joined these forums I was still in the middle of my emailing sessions with the aforementioned BKA 'person'. So the "refuse to grade" statement was written with a little pique. I still have not graded in Kendo and am not that bothered TBH - I have enough on with work, Iai and Jo.

                      The point of this posting was ostensibly to point out the BKA say their newsletter is not a venue for people to air their views and that a forum like KWF is. Yet I noted that whenever anyone says anything negative about the BKA on these forums it seems to get blocked at some point. This is no criticism of Neil ( and I mean that) , it is just that there seems to be no place that anyone can bemoan, whinge, identify shortcomings of the BKA. It all seems very wrong.

                      We either have freedom of speech or we do not. I do not support "freedom of speech" as a means to say what you like how you like; there must be responsibility attached to free speech. But if someone wishes to criticise something they disagree with then I take the view that they should be able to...and I say again... as long as this is done in a reasonable and non-inflammatory way. (explaining this could take the length of a full dissertation so I hope you all get mt drift).

                      Oh and Phil - did you miss the part where I wrote I actually like the BKA?

                      Regards

                      Lee

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by satsumaruma
                        We either have freedom of speech or we do not.
                        That's a seperate issue from any BKA axe-grinding, and one that is commonly misunderstood. Freedom of speech does not apply to web forums, in the same manner that it does not apply to private homes. Freedom of speech means being free to say anything you like without restriction by the government. But in a privately held venue like this, you are subject to the rules laid down by the owners. Many forums forbid foul language, for example. Similarly, if someone is making a scene in your house, you throw them out. This is not censorship. Censorship would come if you set up your own web presence, at your expense, and then had the government regulate what you say.

                        Now I'm not the owner, and I don't set the rules here. I've been allowed to moderate the forums and I try to do that, as I've said before, with a light hand**. If you feel that I'm being heavy-handed here, you're welcome to pm Alex or Hamish and ask for a clarification. I'll of course abide by whatever they say.



                        **Except for spammers, who are banned instantly and without recourse.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Nope i saw that, but on the other hand you clearly have a beef with someone in the BKA. On the one had it could be censorship on the other it could be good editorial policy - I dont know

                          Im concerned though that what is essentially a personal issue with you and someone in the hierarchy could be intrepreted by the KWF readers as a bigger issue

                          For instance if you put a forum up on your club site & used that to air your views, I think that would be fine.

                          I can see why youd want to have a go (and of course you have the right) BUT I still dont think this is the place & FWIW thats my opinion.

                          BTW Ive had more than one PM from respected friends overseas asking me if things really are so bad - QED

                          Anyway all of this is subjective & i wish you luck

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin
                            For instance if you put a forum up on your club site & used that to air your views, I think that would be fine.
                            These days, you don't even have to spend any money. He could create a yahoo news group called "BKA Sux" and have at it. I think that would be a kendo career-limiting move, and it's much better to try to work internally, but that's just me.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Neil,

                              agree with what you say and of course a private site has the right set its own rules and govern them as it sees fit.

                              Phil,

                              NO I do not have a beef with someone in the BKA - but I did get abusive emails from someone within the BKA and did not wish to come across this person at the time it was happening.

                              Setting up a private site might give some people a sense or satisfaction but it would not resolve anything at all - it would just be name calling.

                              The reason why I think it is better to discuss thing openly is that people can then understand where you are coming from - you may not agree and that is fine. It is plain we are not agreeing absolutely on this but I support your right to disgree with me. Voltaire had a great saying on this.

                              My concern is that when we stifle people from being able to make their views known albeit in a reasonable manner we create problems for ourselves. I was just pointing out that maybe some people felt the need to speak about the BKA simply because there is no process to do so within the organisation. It would be great if there was but there isn't. Also, a senior person within that body said to air views on this site ( it is even listed on the links page) so we should not be surprised when people do exactly that. Of course we then come back to Neils point that KWF have the right to stop such things.


                              And no I don't think things are so bad - I have had similar PMs .

                              Right, off to Iai now.

                              Some interesting views. Keep them coming

                              Comment

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