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vs Jodan

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  • vs Jodan

    What is the strategy when fighting against someone in Jodan?
    Is it:

    a) Go for Jodan as well?
    b) Defend by raising your sword pointing towards your opponent's kote (as in kata #5)?
    c) Go for tsuki?

    ... Just interested to know. Maybe everyone has their own tactics

  • #2
    I'm partial for mune-tsuki, suriage kote, or hidari kote.

    and just plain do is always fun. hehehe.


    • #3
      I rasie my chudan to cover the left kote and I always try to go for it straight away, I never give the opponent a chance to strike me from jodan. I would say my success is about 50-50 at the moment but there is always room for improvement. Also suriage men works well for me sometimes.


      • #4
        Leg it at the jodan kendoka waving your shinai and kiai-ing like a banshee.... then smash their gyaku-do as hard as you can and run away.


        • #5
          I believe that munetsuki is no longer allowed as a valid point. Some say it's due to the decreasing number of jodan fighters. Also, Gyakudo is not valid datotsu as far as I can remember.

          Someone has the 'rules of the game' ZNKR manual at hand?


          • #6
            Mune-tsuki has not been a valid point for a number of years now. Gyaku-do, however, is still alive and well.


            • #7

              All joking to the side, gyaku-do is - in my opinion - a completely valid strike. As Alex says, you can still score a point in shiai .. but judges *tend* not to give it (in my experience). Many kendoka fight with it wide open, and even do those funny block things that are so annoying .... = free gyaku-do. I think its careless to not value strikes to that side of the body.

              I told a j-rokudan this weekend (after many beers) that I would hit gyaku-do on him the following day.. he said it was impossible. Guess what? Well, I hit it good ... I then got my ass kicked hard+loads of uchikomi !!! Thats ok though... it was worth it

              Mune-tsuki wont get you a point, but that isnt reason enough to ignore the practise of it + being aware when yours is open.

              Aaaaaaaanyway, even if you cant "score a point" with gyaku-do in a shiai, its a good technique to say "hello, here I am" .... and I *especially* enjoy smashing a big one in against some massive 7ft monster kendoka in jodan .....


              • #8
                mmm... speed can be a problem... by the time I got the opponent's do, would my head be hit already? The Jodan people has a very far reach and can do cuts straight from toi-maai (with katate waza.....)

                Why would judges tend not to give a gyaku-do?
                I've heard that "in the ancient times", the gyaku-do area was suppose to have the kodachi+sheath, i.e. blocking that area. But we are doing modern kendo now, so it shouldn't be a problem!!

                I also noticed that gyaku-do is a very unguarded area for many kendoka. Especially towards the tall ones (+I'm short ), their do is straight in front of my face! But I find it hard to cut gyaku-do in a correct way (because the action feels too much like hitting a baseball...) Maybe because of bad posture


                • #9
                  I've never seen a judge award a gyaku do point, that's why i thought it wasn't valid datotsu. Some of the members of the japanese colony in southern Brazil still practice it, though we at out dojo do not except in warmup dokirikaeshi et caetera. It's interesting, thoug, in the last revision of the znkr rules , in the fancy 'datotsu areas' graphic only migido was marked.

                  Anyway, about the nukido strike against jodan posture, i think it's a bit tricky. Maybe by dodging/bending the next you can make the katate shomen/yokomen land on the shoulder. Otherwise probably suriage or kaeshi maneuvers will do the job. Still have a hundre more tries to have a decent population onto build statistics


                  • #10
                    I thought hidari-do is a valid datotsubu, but only under the same conditions as hidari-kote: that the fists are above the shoulders. That makes it quite useful against jodan.

                    Anyway, here's what I've been told to do against jodan:
                    1) Point the kisaki at the left kobushi (like kata #5).
                    2) Take more of a hanmi kamae in order to help close off kote and, to some extant, do.
                    3) Seme at the kobushi, not the tsukidare. It doesn't do much good to point at it, then point at the tsukidare as soon as you want to attack.
                    4) When striking men, aim hidari-men instead of shomen, as it's easier to get.
                    5) Be very aware of maai. Training so that your own issoku itto no ma gets longer is very helpful.
                    6) When you do attack, go in fast and without hesitation.


                    • #11
                      We just had Toda sensei, renowned jodan and now nito specialist, visit us for a week long seminar. Unfortunately I couldn't be at either of the jodan or the nito sessions. Any Melbourne kendoka out there got any recycled words of wisdom for us? (Matthew? I know you're reading this!)



                      • #12
                        I got limited experience in fighting against jodan, but here goes:

                        Distance is crucial: You can be in his/her cutting distance and not be able to attack your self.
                        Always move to the right, never to the left, unless attacking right kote. This will protect your own kote.
                        Use tsuki, not for scoring, but to tell them that you are there. Any jodan player that stops moving forward will lose.
                        'Taunt' them by playing with the distance, but be prepared to evade/counter-attack.



                        • #13
                          I've seen Gyakudo scored as a point a bunch of times, maybe the people who you've seen hit it just don't hit it right

                          anyways, adding to the list of things to do against jodan...
                          As soon as they move to jodan, tsuki. Don't give them any time to become comfortable at jodan, an immediate tsuki catches them off guard plus gives you another oppurtunity to strike.
                          When they strike men in jodan, most of the people i've practice with attack with holding the shinai only with the left hand, therefore, they can't really do any nidan or sandan waza. The split second after they strike, you have a great oppurtinty to hit them because they have to get both hands on the shinai to strike again.

                          Adding to Jschmidt's taunt, what I usually do is fake like i'm going in, and then pull out as they strike, giving me a great chance to hit them while they're simply striking air.

                          But hey, i'm still young, so i can run around on the floor a lot easier.


                          • #14
                            In reply to Ben, I participated in soime Jodan and Nitto seminars with Toda sensei.

                            Re Nitto - he is amazing, there does not appear to be any openings and he is so strong. I didn't see anyone get near to achieving a decent cut on him.

                            Re Jodan. We covered a number of attack and defence scenarios. Most obviously, tsuki to the throat is one attack you can use but of course you need good technique and zanshin yourself tobe successful. Remember that someone who uses Jodan (if they are good at it) has good zanshin to make use of the technique. Another technique is to time the movements of the Jodan player and when an opening arises strike the left kote - very difficult because you can't start too close to the opponent because they will just strike you with a katate strike. Toda sensei also emphasised the use of suriage techniques. In this scenario you try and draw an attack from the Jodan player (expecting them to hit men or kote) and when they cut use suriage to strike men or kote (if you can). In practising, I worked out myself that you can also employ tai atari - if your strike is ineffective, continue the momentum and use tai atari. Because the Jodan player is open, you can effectively given them a good knock that might put them off and create an opening for a hiki or other technique.

                            Toda sensei also taught some techniques a Jodan player can use against an Itto player, including some interesting feitns. I have to stop here because Im at work and need to go !



                            • #15
                              I'd like to hear about some of those feints, as that is the key to Jodan Seme. if you remember any of 'em, can you post 'em for me?