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  • larger swords (no-dachi etc)

    Recently, Olaf mentioned training with larger weapons, notably a no-dachi sized one. Has anyone else done such exercises? Having never done anything like that, Id be very interested in hearing about it.

    c

  • #2
    Sorry this is a double post. I put it in the wrong thread.

    I did use a 4 shaku shinai at one time related to Oishi Shinkage ryu. However this Ryu dates back to before there were decided areas to attack. There are a lot of tsuki-waza.

    My own sword is a 3.8. Thats and overall length of 5ft 8

    http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Nkage2.html

    Stretching exercise for this are somewhat different to Kendo as a very long low stance is required generating hip power.

    Hyaku

    Comment


    • #3
      Here is some general information about longer swords. Much of it from the european side, but still informative.

      For a good No-dachi Photo: http://emjnet.history.ohio-state.edu...word%20Big.htm It looks, by my guess, to be about 5 feet in total length with a 1.5 foot tsuka (150 cm long with a 45 cm tsuka). Consistent with Hyaku's big blade.

      From the Di Grasse manual on fencing: http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/XVTwoHand.htm Some very interesting discussion on how to actually use and counter the things. Note that he sounds just like Musashi at times, "Both strategies require great resolution."

      Length/weight statistics on European two-handed swords at bottom of this link (I could not find a comparable japanese list - all of my japanese sword technical resources focused on katanas and tachis and hardly mention any other weapons): http://www.palus.demon.co.uk/Sword_Stats.html Imagine trying to swing a 13 pound sword, or one that was (overall) 6.5 feet (2 m) long. Actually the most strinking thing to me in this research was how light they really were. I guess they must have been. I don't consider a 13 pound sword to be particularly usable, and I am relatively strong person.

      If anyone knows of reputable information on actual no-dachi specifications and waza, I love to hear about it.

      Hyaku: that was a great link. Thank you.

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      • #4
        > Hyaku: that was a great link. Thank you.


        I suspect that the bald guy in the pictures with the huge sword *IS* Hyaku.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by alexpollijr
          Hyaku: that was a great link. Thank you.

          I suspect that the bald guy in the pictures with the huge sword *IS* Hyaku.
          ........

          Yes its me!

          I would have like to have posted some pics of other people. As you can imagine a smaller Japanese person makes the blades look even bigger. Sadly there is no one else now who practices. A picture of the old shihan can be found here though.

          http://koryu.com/photos/aj1042.html

          Hyaku

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          • #6
            God! Damn!! Hyaku, how does a normal japanese person draw that sword?!!? Is it possible to draw from the hip?

            Wait is that the same type of sword that Sasaki Kojiro uses?

            Can you draw it over the shoulder? I ask this because in the books its said that Ganryu(kojiro) draws his blade over his shoulder.

            Meng

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            • #7
              Re: larger swords (no-dachi etc)

              Originally posted by Confound
              Recently, Olaf mentioned training with larger weapons, notably a no-dachi sized one. Has anyone else done such exercises? c
              Correction: Lewis, Meng and I were joking about claymores and other odd medieval weapons. Never did I mention having trained with "larger weapons" in Kendo.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KhawMengLee
                God! Damn!! Hyaku, how does a normal japanese person draw that sword?!!? Is it possible to draw from the hip?

                Nowadays always. Originally they were word as slung swords. This make it even easier to draw. Not only draw but do tameshigiri from the draw. The is batto jutsu not iaido.

                The following picture is after the draw cutting up betwen the legs. But the saya is being returned to its original position and the legs are rising froma tate hiza position the hip still pushing in.

                http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/K1.html

                My teacher used to draw a 3.6 with ease. another person was drawing a 4. I can draw longer but would rather settle for a 3.8 and do it well. I have someone up in Tokyo that is drawing a 3.8 but he still needs lots of work on cutting.
                .............

                Wait is that the same type of sword that Sasaki Kojiro uses?

                Thats debatable. There is little information left about him. But the Hosokawa family have a Bokuto made from and oar at their house down in Yatsushiro. The story handed down through family is that Musashi gave this to his lord after the duel as he had thrown the original away. He had fashioned it to a length of 3.1, just slightly longer than Sasakis blade which was said to be a Sanjaku (threeshaku)
                ...........

                Can you draw it over the shoulder? I ask this because in the books its said that Ganryu(kojiro) draws his blade over his shoulder.

                Meng

                You can't even draw and cut with a Josun (2.3) from this position. A succesful cutting draw relys on good sayabiki.

                To draw a 120 cm blade you would need a 120 cm reach with no sayabiki. Although it is possible if you discard the saya. It brings up another point however that you dont throw away your saya unless you have a death wish. You would want the clean the blade and resheath it to take it home!

                Hyaku

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                • #9
                  A little of topic, how much mekugi does it take to attach that sword to the tsuka? And how long is the nakago?

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                  • #10
                    Hyaku,

                    I'm with Meng; totally awed that you do batto with such a big blade. I remember reading that the bigger japanese blades were meant for battlefield use only (like a yari or naginata) and it never crossed my mind to do iai or batto with one. Wow.

                    You said you used a 4 shaku shinai once, what was that like?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A little of topic, how much mekugi does it take to attach that sword to the tsuka? And how long is the nakago?
                      _________________
                      --- Scott M. Takenaka

                      Hello Scott There are usually two mekugi in longer weapons shuch as this and nagamaki.

                      The is of average length just a bit shorter than the tsuka. This is very necessary. One needs the counterbalance for one handed work. Also these blade have a big sori. It makes them easier to draw but destroys the cutting balance at the kissaki if the curve is too big.
                      ................

                      You said you used a 4 shaku shinai once, what was that like?

                      Hello Lewis

                      It essentially a weapon for tsuki. Kote and Men were good if you could keep the opponent outside his maai. Some people would get wise to it and quickly try to get inside. the opponents spend far more time moving backwards than forwards though!

                      Of course if it was a blade this would not work. I also use a 1.2 tanto mounted wakizashi for that very purpose

                      A nice Do would have been fun but too risky to try.

                      The originator Oishi Susuma traveled around Japan and made quite a name for himself beating everybody with his fukuro shinai. But at that time there were no hard and fast rules as to where you thrusted!

                      Using it I though that genbudo and kobudo just dont mix too well

                      Regards Hyaku

                      http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        from hyaku
                        "To draw a 120 cm blade you would need a 120 cm reach with no sayabiki. Although it is possible if you discard the saya. It brings up another point however that you dont throw away your saya unless you have a death wish. You would want the clean the blade and resheath it to take it home!"

                        and from KhawMengLee
                        "Can you draw it over the shoulder? I ask this because in the books its said that Ganryu(kojiro) draws his blade over his shoulder"

                        when you were youre sword on your back you only attach it on the upper side (at the shoulder or in that area). this way it is possible to get the sword horizontal on youre shoulder (hope youre still following, it is hard to explain) and it is easier to pull it out

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          [QUOTE=lewis]

                          Length/weight statistics on European two-handed swords at bottom of this link (I could not find a comparable japanese list - all of my japanese sword technical resources focused on katanas and tachis and hardly mention any other weapons): http://www.palus.demon.co.uk/Sword_Stats.html Imagine trying to swing a 13 pound sword, or one that was (overall) 6.5 feet (2 m) long. Actually the most strinking thing to me in this research was how light they really were. I guess they must have been. I don't consider a 13 pound sword to be particularly usable, and I am relatively strong person.

                          QUOTE]

                          I don't think the 13 p swords were ever used for fighting... the heaviest and longest swords were probably for show: carried in processions, by royal guards etc to look impressive rather than be effective. Most twohand swords intended for use on the field weighed around 4 kgs or 8 pounds and wereshorter than the person using it. However, swords that were actually used in battle are seldom found in todays collections and museums, while swords whith ceremonial or symbolic functions naturally are more often preserved... this may be a little different in japan, where my impression is that all swords are in many ways symbolic, and an old sword has always been more than scrap steel even if it never belonged to a king or saint...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Miburo-Wolf
                            from hyaku
                            "To draw a 120 cm blade you would need a 120 cm reach with no sayabiki. Although it is possible if you discard the saya. It brings up another point however that you dont throw away your saya unless you have a death wish. You would want the clean the blade and resheath it to take it home!"

                            When you were youre sword on your back you only attach it on the upper side (at the shoulder or in that area). this way it is possible to get the sword horizontal on youre shoulder (hope youre still following, it is hard to explain) and it is easier to pull it out
                            Wow, thanks for the explanation! Do you think you could do this with mine?
                            Then what happens when you cut using strong kahanshin and hip twist and your saya swings round and smacks you in the face?

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