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  • Why??

    Why are people in general so submisive to people who out rank them???

  • #2
    Submissive How?

    I'm not sure in what respect you mean submissive.....please elaborate......it could be you are misunderstanding respect and proper etiquette in a traditional martial art setting for submissive behavior.....

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    • #3
      Submissiveness or respect? The two have different boundaries in Western and Eastern cultures. That being said, some reasons:

      (0) because a 8dan is older than a 1dan
      (1) because a 8dan can seriously teach a 1dan something of value
      (2) because a 8dan can seriously kick a 1dan's @ss

      Of course, one should pick his/her teacher judiciously and not simply or totally acquiesce to everyone who has a higher rank. Teachers are human too.
      Last edited by cklin; 17th September 2002, 02:59 PM.

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      • #4
        I believe it is just a matter of respect. You respect your parents and those older then you in general because of their knowledge. You listen to them and obey what they say because they have made mistakes and want you to learn from them. When you listen to a sensei, or even someone a little higher rank then you, you are learning from what they have learned. Having respect for these higher ranking or older people is a way of thanking them for showing you what they have learned.

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        • #5
          Submissive/Respect

          I was in Kyoto this past April/May for the Second World Botuko Sai at the Butokuden.....I was most impressed by one individual there.....She was a high ranking Iai practioner and was the greatest example of humility and lack of ego that I have ever seen....all throughout the Butoku Sai she was always attentive to her Sensei....whether it was carrying his shoes....only taking his picture....always walking behind him.....or attending to any of his needs she always put him first.....From an outsiders view it may have appeared that she was submissive but on close inspection I think one would see an individual who has truly conquered themselves and their own ego through a life time of training....an example to be strived for.....and by the way her rank in Iaido.....Kyu-dan.......not exactly someone who would be submissive

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          • #6
            Someone at my dojo made an observation that most Americans don't have the same customs and ideas of respect as Japanese and Koreans. To Americans it might seem like they're being submissive but to most Asians it's just being curtious...It's the way they were raised ya know...plus it's also true that you should respect someone that knows more of a subject than you...

            Like man...This one time this beginner who had his bogu for 2 weeks tried to give me advice on how to do my kendo...Man, that just really pissed me off because I have been doing it several times longer than him... Some people just don't have the same ideas of etiquette as others... I don't know about the rest of you, but when I started Kendo I was very careful not to offend other people... guess it was just the way i was raised as a Korean

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            • #7
              I'm with Jerry, waiting to hear exactly what Bob means by submissive?

              (if it's to do with a dungeon and leatherwear please post the address)

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              • #8
                Conversely...

                And ideally it should work both ways too shouldnt it? The whole mutual respect/responsiblity sempai/kohai thing?

                In any case, you can learn from those less experienced than you. You can be so accustomed to doing things a certain way, that having a beginner say "so you HAVE to do it like that, do you?" can make you stop and think about your own habits that you may never have noticed. (I'm speaking more from professional experience here than Kendo btw... )

                <rei>

                Dave

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                • #9
                  I like the formalism, courtesy and sense of hierarchy that comes with Kendo. And IMHO it creates a very good learning atmosphere.

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                  • #10
                    Methinks bob is a troll.
                    I may be wrong,
                    but probably not.
                    :-)

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                    • #11
                      Re: Why??

                      Originally posted by bob
                      Why are people in general so submisive to people who out rank them???
                      not trying to be offenssive.... but did you ever thought about this way: Did you think they managed to attended their rank by luck?

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                      • #12
                        Okay let me give an example. About five years ago we had a very high ranking sensi move to our home town. Now let me tell you this sensi's kendo was some of the best I have ever seen and I am with NCKF so we have some good guy's. Also he was one of the best instructors I have had the pleasure of learning with. Now with that said this sensi expected everything done for him someone to cary his bogu someone to fold his hakama someone to pour and pay for his beer oh and dont foreget his dinner someone to pick him up when he fell down drunk and made an ass of himself. Now keep in mind this sensi was at the time a 7 dan now 8 dan and like I said before his Kendo is bad azz. But actions were never questioned and if anybody ever said something they were being disrespectfull cuz he was a higher ranking sensi. It just seemed that everybody was so submisive to this guy and I don't get it.

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                        • #13
                          The Bow is for You!

                          Bob.....there is an old saying that "The bow is not for me but the bow is for you".....I have been in martial arts for over 30 years and have been on both sides of the coin.....I believe that respect is a mutual thing....in the begining it is automatic but eventually it must be earned.....As a Sensei one should automatically respect ever student....as a student one should automatically respect the sensei...however this automatic level of respect comes from the mind(head).....as the relationship between a sensei and student grows the level and kind of respect should grow also.....the student should now respect the sensei because of the ability, knowledge they have and their williness to help the student to grow and progress....the sensei should also now change form automatic respect to respect for the student who has worked hard...put in hours of training...shown an interest...sweat...sweat...sweat etc....now this mutual respect is from the heart......we all have know "Sensei's" like the one you mention.....after all we are all human and none of us perfect....I do not judge another but I agree it is much more difficult to respect this type......however if we can conquer are own feelings and still show respect and etiquette for this person then we are the one's better for it...."the bow is not for them but for you".....I do not see this type of behavior as being submissive but that the students are just better students than the sensei is a sensei.....a sensei no matter how high the rank should not expect anything from the students except attention and effort....anything else ie., beer, dinner, transportation, luggage service....should be greatly appreciated and not expected.......just my thoughts......Never too much of proper etiquette or "Reigei"

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                          • #14
                            I have seen it in some occasions. Some people would pay blind respect to their sensei or senpai for the wrong reasons. Kendo is a big part of many people's life but it's just a part, I respect a sensei who would be respectable, and that more on the human side than on his kendo skills. I don't like to see that blind respect, As a kendoka i'm respecteful to any kendoka whatever their ranks, but just more formal with old sensei because in the first place they give a lot of devotion towards kendo and people learning kendo even thought they have been doing it for such a long time. In other words, I respect people who give of their time to teach and also can learn from other people.

                            Also I think that in kendo everyone is a teacher.

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                            • #15
                              Hmmnnn, I think its a cultural thing. There is a lot of hierachy in japanese culture. If you look at business ettiquette for one, with golf Senior execs play with senior execs. A office worker will not be invited to play unless there is no one around. Even if you get invited you cannot beat your seniors...bad career move.

                              A good example of this is in the movie Chushingura (1963) aka. 47 ronin. The thing here was that the master of ceremonies was recipient to "gifts" from the other lords. The host refused to bribe him and suffered.

                              Not all Senseis are like this. The two Sensei at my club in Malaysia are very humble and are partial to buy rounds of beer in the pub later.

                              We still patronize them to a degree but this is out of gratitude.

                              PEACE
                              MENG

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