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  • Nito: Hits too soft

    Hi,
    I am attempting nito..(probably very badly )
    when fencing D'artagnan last night he commented that my hits seem "not very hard".
    Dont worry D' I'm not having a go

    I think this is because I am accutely aware of trying to maintain tenouchi with one hand.

    Is the lighter touch a common occurance, or am I just a limp wristed fop?
    Other than carrying on practicing and build up the strength of the hit.. until I get the right feel of a cut, are there any tips? Are there any feelings or techniques I should apply?

    thankee for help in advance ... Paulo

  • #2
    How do you maintain tenouchi with just one hand if you're a limp wristed fop?
    Last edited by Andoru; 12th August 2004, 06:04 PM.

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    • #3
      Do you practice nito-kihon?..or do you only drag them out for ji-geiko?.

      Jakob

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      • #4
        Originally posted by JSchmidt
        Do you practice nito-kihon?..or do you only drag them out for ji-geiko?.

        Jakob
        I try.. but as I do not run the class.. I have to fit in with the rest of the itto-chudan crowd.. I conform.

        Up to now.. Nito has been a play around.. but I'm starting to see it in a more serious light. I'm going to focus a bit more energy into my nito. but to do this I need to know how to do it right, or correct mistakes I'm making

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        • #5
          Originally posted by emitbrownne
          I try.. but as I do not run the class.. I have to fit in with the rest of the itto-chudan crowd.. I conform.

          Up to now.. Nito has been a play around.. but I'm starting to see it in a more serious light. I'm going to focus a bit more energy into my nito. but to do this I need to know how to do it right, or correct mistakes I'm making
          I used to train with a guy of about the same age as you who played nitoh. He had played kendo from childhood. I think he was 4th dan or 5th dan. He joined our club on the introduction of another guy who I trained with who had trained with him at high school.

          I remember that the concensus among the senior instructors at the club was that he should give up playing nitoh until he had mastered itoh. He had been playing kendo for something like twenty years.

          My point is that if you want to play around sure, use nitoh. If you are serious about kendo and really want to get good play ittoh. This is as much for the people you train with as for yourself. It will do them more good to have a decent chudan player to train against. Do yourself and them a favour and stick to chudan.

          This post may be followed by people who want to talk about the importance of diversity and giving people the chance to try new things and face new challenges and that blah blah blah. They are wrong. Play ittoh. Period.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Nanbanjin
            ..... Do yourself and them a favour and stick to chudan.....
            .....They are wrong. Play ittoh. Period.
            So you suggest I quit with the naginata too?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by emitbrownne
              I try.. but as I do not run the class.. I have to fit in with the rest of the itto-chudan crowd.. I conform.
              I know what you mean . While one of my teachers has told me that I'm welcome to use jodan during kihon, it's tricky with the amount of beginners we have, as there's no reason to confuse them anymore than they are already ...still, it's necessary and as soon as the current work project is over (soon!) and I'm able to practice regulary, I will start doing jodan kihon again.

              Nanbanjin's point is a valid one, which I sort of agree with (but don't follow!!).
              Regardless, nito is still kendo and the fundamental principles remain the same and training in a different kamae can show things in a different light.

              Jakob

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              • #8
                Originally posted by JSchmidt
                Regardless, nito is still kendo and the fundamental principles remain the same and training in a different kamae can show things in a different light.
                my thoughts too. My nito observations have aided my itto, and my naginata has aided my nito.. weird as it may sound.

                I train just as hard, whatever kamae I use.. whatever weapon I use. If it takes me longer to get to the same level as someone who trains exclusively with itto then so be it.

                I'm in Kendo for life.. so there no rush.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by emitbrownne
                  So you suggest I quit with the naginata too?
                  I'd suggest you need some focus. How many fringe sports do you want to play? Within the fringe sport of your choosing how many different fringe variations do you want to try? Are you interested in getting good at what you do, or are you looking for a place so removed from what everyone else is doing that you are protected from any kind of scrutiny?

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                  • #10
                    Hi Emit, you know me of course and I have been visiting your Dojyo since I can't make it any where else because of work. I am younger and not as good as you at kendo. I tried Nito for afew months off and on, and it seems fun until I talked to Gavin Thriepland afew times, he is a great Nito fencer. Although Gmason beat him in the Premieres he is still the best Nito fencer I have seen.

                    Although budo is fun and a chance for use to do things we could never do out of the Dojyo. I sill think if you want to change your Ryu-ha you need to find a very good instructor to teach you, or like many, many people have said. You will develop bad habits and as I feel you will feel you are very good until you actually train with some people that are experienced and find you will have to learn all over again .

                    There is a Niten ichi ryu seminar in France coming up where you can see traditional two sword techniques performed by the best nitenichiryu shi in the world. And maybe some interesting Nito players will be there, even if the two forums seem to hate each other .

                    Or if you can't make it like me, look for Gavin Thriepland, he seems friendly and I have usualy seen him eather carring Niten ichiru bokken or Nito shinai .


                    Sorry if I am being big headed again .

                    P.S the book you lent me has some great things on Shizentai . I hope I can put them into practice on Sunday! .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nanbanjin
                      I'd suggest you need some focus. How many fringe sports do you want to play? Within the fringe sport of your choosing how many different fringe variations do you want to try? Are you interested in getting good at what you do, or are you looking for a place so removed from what everyone else is doing that you are protected from any kind of scrutiny?
                      Does that mean a decathlete does what he does because he fears failing against a single focused athlete, despite the fact lots of them set world records??

                      first :- I do what I do because I enjoy it.
                      second :- I will try and be good at it.
                      third :- try and help others.
                      numerous imbetween :-
                      last :- worry about scrutiny of others.

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                      • #12
                        As long as you are dedicated to what you are doing no-one should be able to criticise your choice. If you want to do something a little different you sould be allowed to, as long as a) you enjoy it and b) you are truly interested in doing your best. Chudan Itto is obviously the 'ideal' in kendo, but why have nito as a possibility if no-one will pluck up the courage to try, regardless of what others think? Good luck to you ^^

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by emitbrownne
                          Does that mean a decathlete does what he does because he fears failing against a single focused athlete, despite the fact lots of them set world records??

                          first :- I do what I do because I enjoy it.
                          second :- I will try and be good at it.
                          third :- try and help others.
                          numerous imbetween :-
                          last :- worry about scrutiny of others.
                          Write me a list of world records set by decatheletes against a list of world records set by people who concentrate on a single sport.

                          Are you a gifted sportsperson? Does it dawn on you that the people you train with might be even less ready for nitoh than you are?

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                          • #14
                            Geez, I'll try to answer your original ??...

                            Nito is tough, no way around it. Your hits should be as strong or stronger than with itto, and with same tenouchi, although the nito technique for tenouchi is different than for itto. Nito takes ALOT of wrist, forearm and shoulder strenght, as well as a killer grip. You will need to supplement your kendo practice with specific weight training for your diato arm. For me, I took a regurlar 39 shinai, put a 30" x 1/2" dia steel rod in the middle, and wrapped a 5 lb "soft" leg weight around it. I do a number of single-handed exercises with this several times a week. You have to be careful with this, as it is easy to over swing (speed) and injure your wrist. You need to work the wrist as well. Anyway, strength issues aside, your hits will need to be strong and accurate. Good, solid hits with no "sliding" off because you were inaccurate. Misses should stop below the target, and not continue all the way to the floor.....

                            Nito tenouchi is different, because you never really "relax" your grip like you can do in itto. Nito tenouchi is very similar to iaido tenouchi for single-handed cuts. Nito tenouchi is a progressive harder gripping starting with the little finger, and working up the fingers to the index finger. To start, you have to practice on your own, slowly, applying the tenouchi over about a second or so. Gripping fingers 4,3,2,1 in order. Gradully you speed it up, until you can perform this tenouchi at the moment of the strike. Again, you have to have great strength in your grip and forearm. The actual swinging requires the shoulder strength.

                            As far as kihon in practice goes, I use my regular itto 39 shinai for kihon, and if doing suburi (while not instructing) I switch and use the 39 for nito suburi. (Shoto hand just goes thru the motions empty). Also, it helps to use a bigger heavier shinai for working out your muscles.. If you need to, you can switch back to itto in a flash.

                            When practicing waza, you should NOT do nito with anybody less than 2dan. Maybe a good 1dan is OK, but my Sensei says anybody less will not be equipped to properly practice with you, and you will hurt their kendo. This then presupposes you are 2dan or above, which is the "general" rule for starting nito, if there is such a thing. Of course, when practicing nito waza, you will have to modify the itto exercises you are given to do, and your partner will have to accomodate you accordingly. This can be a valuable time for your partner, but ONLY if he/she has the skill to work with your nito. If they do not, you will be doing them a disservice. It is not proper to benefit at the detriment of your partner.

                            Then, when in keiko, you again should only practice with good 1dan or above, for the reasons stated. Your main concern in both waza and keiko is benefit of your partner. This is true for all at upper ranks. 3dan practicing with 1kyu should practice (hard!) at 1+kyu or 1dan level, etc. This is proper respect for others.

                            So, it is tough to work/learn nito. There is much more to consider than just ourselves. Further complicated if you do not have a Sensei that can teach Nito. (OH!!!! it goes without saying that you absolutely should only do this if your Sensei approves, and you should specifically ask for his approval and instruction.)

                            Hope this addresses your original question....

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by emitbrownne
                              Is the lighter touch a common occurance, or am I just a limp wristed fop?
                              I used to practice with a 1-dan nito player, and he hit hard. My wrist aches just thinking about it.

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