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  • Shiai Teramoto vs. Park (??)

    I'm surprised to find no hearty thread discussions about this match...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eddgitkABeE

    Comments for the exchanges at 5:07 and 6:24?

  • #2
    The strike by Park at ~5:07 when looked at on a frame by frame basis looks like his maai may have been too close as well as the fact that it looked like Teramoto partially blocked the strike. Due to the speed of the action its not easy to tell for sure. At normal speed I also had thought Park's strike might be ippon but after looking at it frame by frame its not so clear that it was. (IMHO)

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    • #3
      The 6:24 strike clearly lands on the side of Teramotos men around the ear area and not on top.

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      • #4
        By the way... head shimpan in that match looked an awful lot like Tagawa-sensei of Detroit!

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        • #5
          This is very interesting. Can someone explain why this looks so different in character to me than the various All Japan finals I've seen? Somehow it looks quite different to my naive ignorance of high level kendo.

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          • #6
            Thanks for comments.
            yes, hard to get clear ippon at those close match.
            in my opinion, Park's hiki men was still on the men (though not in the centre) while Teromato hide his men.
            then I am just wondering if you think Teromoto's men really ippon?
            the view from slow motion, it seems to be hit be a side of shinai.
            Obviously it's neither arguing but just curious.

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            • #7
              Tango - sure looks like it. I'm jonsing to hear about the whole experience... as well as that match.

              oh, and there was a semi-healthy discussion of the match on the WKC Twitter thread a few pages in.

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              • #8
                It does look like Tagawa sensei as shushin in the final match. I know Tagawa sensei was a shinpan at the taikai. Did anyone keep track of the shinpan? I'm pretty sure Ariga sensei's twitter announced the shinpan for the matches.

                Eurokendo, from the views I had it looked pretty clearly that the hiki men by Park at6:24 was on the side of the men buton near the top of Teramoto's ear and not in a yuko datotsu area.

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                • #9
                  There was a lot of discussion of the winning point in Teramoto-Park on the Twitter thread. Hamish posted a link to a slow-mo of the shinai contact.

                  My opinion is that it is very hard to judge points from you tube videos. It's difficult to get a sense of the build-up and whether there was a good opportunity/reason, but very easy to nitpick the actual contact. When you are judging live, depending on the angle you can miss seeing the contact but it's much easier to get a sense for the other attributes of the point. That's why, for example, I will raise my flag on a kote I didn't see, so long as the judge with the clear view raises his - I may feel everything was there, and the other judge confirms the contact, so I call it.

                  In this case, the video confirms the contact was good, or maybe you could argue hasuji was a little off. At any rate, all 3 of the judges watching it live thought it was a point, and at this level they are looking for more than did the shinai hit the target. I'm not about to second guess them.

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                  • #10
                    Thanks, Neil... just now read through the Twitter thread to find some of the discussion..


                    In any case, I would still almost lay down money that shushin was Tagawa-sensei...
                    Anybody confirm?

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                    • #11
                      Track was being kept of the shinpan on the board, but you can't see it on the video. I didn't pay attention to it at the time.

                      Well, I was right there. I can say I and lots of other people felt that Park's hits were pretty good, on par if not better than Teramoto's winning point. Having said that, none of us were right there as close as the shinpan, and we don't have 7-8-dan eyes-of-hell that see fraction-of-a-second differences in strikes. Also much can be told by listening to the strike, and for that you must be close by, specially in that gym (the echo when the gym was empty was uncanny. We had some fun counting how long we could hear the reverberating "pulse" of a fumikomi.)

                      EDA: In fact I remember feeling that some of Teramoto's own previous attempts were much better than the final point. C'est la vie...
                      Last edited by Abramo; 1st September 2009, 06:46 AM.

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                      • #12
                        In the early videos that came out it was hard to see but in the one Hamish provided it is clearly ippon. That being said I agree with the below:
                        Originally posted by Abramo View Post
                        EDA: In fact I remember feeling that some of Teramoto's own previous attempts were much better than the final point. C'est la vie...
                        There was one men-uchi from Teramoto that I thought looked great.

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                        • #13
                          I was there very near the court, at the third chair line. Parks men looked nice and clean but sounded oddly because of a partial block and hit near Teramotos ear. Teramotos men sounded as good as it were near my own ear ... Anyway, IMHO, maybe if it was at old days Parks had a ippon, but now the recommendations to shimpan says no specifically to this cases - no datotsu bu and lack of crispness - as it was teach me at the 2008 American zone referee seminar.

                          The most impressive thing, after all, is that Park has no age to use a shaver! I think he will be back ...

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                          • #14
                            Edited because an error ! Sorry!
                            Last edited by Gtakano; 1st September 2009, 12:18 PM. Reason: double posting sorry

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                            • #15
                              I've been through all those clips that Kendo-World took from this 14 WKC and posted on the YouTube including Park's individual semi-final, women's team final between Japan and Korea and the taisho match of men's team final.

                              Instead of talking about this specific case only, I feel to share my findings in terms of how to improve preciseness in judgment.

                              1. Let's start from Park's individual semi-final against Choi from the same team, Korea. The only score was made at 3:43, but in slow-motion, it's confirmed that the hit was on Choi's fingers. Choi overall performed better in that match, but he couldn't advance to the final because of that bad call.

                              2. Men's individual final: Many of you are saying that Park's hiki-men was off the center, I think his ki and chance were good enough to score. Refer to chuken match of women’s team final. The hiki-men by Jeon (Korea) at 2:34 was off the center, but scored. Back to Park’s hiki-men, it just didn’t score, that’s it. I wouldn’t say it was a “bad call”, but just happened that way.

                              Meanwhile, some say Teramoto’s previous men should’ve been a score while some say Park’s previous counter-men had to be. Well, maybe it was because Teramoto’s strike was short and Park’s strike was not in sync with the stomping. So comparing these two, it’s fair enough to me.

                              4. Moving onto women’s team match, I think this Sempo match was probably the worst (people just didn’t pay as much attention as to men’s matches). Yamamoto (Japan)’s first men didn’t touch Lee (Korea)’s men at all, but scored. And at 2:18, Yamamoto’s kote missed the target while Lee’s counter men landed precisely. However, Yamamoto scored again and she won the game. With the two bad calls in a row in favor of Japan and especially in Sempo match, Korea team must have been devastated questioning referee’s fairness.

                              5. The jiho match. At 1:44, Sakuma (Japan)’s men perfectly landed on Park (Korea), but no call at all, which was a good thing for Korea. After the strike, Park showed an action of giving-up as if she admitted that strike without question, but she had to be in play again as she finds no flag-raise.

                              6. Lastly, the taisho match in men’s team final. To me, the last blow at 4:23 doesn’t seem great. It was shallow and not synced with the foot. If this was a score, Park’s counter-men and hiki-men in men’s individual final could’ve been a score, too.

                              All in all, referees are not always correct. They’re human being and that’s the way kendo tournament is going in many places. If we can acknowledge that referees can make mistakes, there’s nothing wrong to say that the result this time was made in favor of Japan in overall instead of simply rationalizing the results, which wouldn’t be helpful improve human judgment and reduce debatable instances in the next WKC.
                              Last edited by cminister; 1st September 2009, 04:48 PM.

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