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Reactions to 15 WKC in Novara

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  • One other thing I noticed, and it's a difficult call but it happened enough for my spidey-sense to twitch, was the number of times various senshu stopped the match to check their shinai. A couple of times this smelled to me of a kind of "player-induced wakare".

    These sort of habits can be imitated by impressionable kenshi (especially, but not limited to, younger ones) around the world, either consciously or unconsciously. Other examples of these self-taught mannerisms: sanpo-mamori, slapping the ground with kensen after tsuki, one handed do zanshin whilst running, not turning to face opponent in kamae after zanshin when ippon has been awarded or just making a cursory wave of the kensen in their direction, etc, etc.

    b

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    • Just re-watched the end of the men's final, as I missed the infamous "non-bowing" incident at the time. Korean fukusho sort of bowed, pretty cursory. But Korean chuken B. Park (KOR7) chucked a full-blown tanty by turning away from Shodai. He probably regrets it now, but in case he doesn't, here's a message to him from me:

      Harden the fuck up Princess.

      b

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      • Originally posted by ben View Post
        Just re-watched the end of the men's final, as I missed the infamous "non-bowing" incident at the time. Korean fukusho sort of bowed, pretty cursory. But Korean chuken B. Park (KOR7) chucked a full-blown tanty by turning away from Shodai. He probably regrets it now, but in case he doesn't, here's a message to him from me:

        Harden the fuck up Princess.

        b
        Ha ha, he should spend some time at "Chopper" Reid's training camp for Princesses!! Or I could donate a cup off concrete for him to ingest at his own leisure...

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        • Originally posted by ben View Post
          One other thing I noticed, and it's a difficult call but it happened enough for my spidey-sense to twitch, was the number of times various senshu stopped the match to check their shinai. A couple of times this smelled to me of a kind of "player-induced wakare".


          b
          This is completely true and it can be easily avoided by...

          shimpan enforcing the wakare and stalling hansoku rules.

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          • Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
            It's in the rules, insult to opponent or referee results in a 2-0 loss. If it was a one-point win this would be effectively penalize the team.
            It's not the whether it is in the rules part that's the concern here...it is being willing to call it that's not so easy.

            Really, couldn't you give them a torikeshi just for the fist bumps?

            What about those "check the shinai" yame requests?

            The long and leisurely stroll back to the starting line?

            I would suspect if a foul was given for any of these reiho violations, you would be giving a lot more fuel to biased judging favoring the Japanese team.

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            • Or, to put it another way, even if the cop is watching, there's the speed limit, then there's the speed where he'll really pull you over and write you a ticket....

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              • How could you enforce the shinai checking one? It is not against the rules to get your shinai checked, and you can't really prove that nothing was wrong with it even if it's just a matter of a rotated naka yui or something.

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                • Originally posted by Missingno. View Post
                  How could you enforce the shinai checking one?
                  It's a discretion thing. If the guy asks to check a shinai repeatedly then I would call gogi and maybe give a penalty for stalling. I've never had to do such a thing but I don't have as much experience as some people here. Maybe some of the sensei who do more tournaments can comment.

                  Similar for tsuba-zeriai. If the guy is stalling in tsuba-zeriai, you call wakari once or maybe twice. After that, it should be hansoku (assuming it is the same guy who is stalling). But you have to make a distinction between an active tsuba-zeriai and a dead one. If both sides are clearly trying to make a point, then it is fine although if it goes on too long I would still separate them.

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                  • Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
                    It's a discretion thing. If the guy asks to check a shinai repeatedly then I would call gogi and maybe give a penalty for stalling. I've never had to do such a thing but I don't have as much experience as some people here. Maybe some of the sensei who do more tournaments can comment.
                    your experience is the same as mine there..

                    Similar for tsuba-zeriai. If the guy is stalling in tsuba-zeriai, you call wakari once or maybe twice. After that, it should be hansoku (assuming it is the same guy who is stalling). But you have to make a distinction between an active tsuba-zeriai and a dead one. If both sides are clearly trying to make a point, then it is fine although if it goes on too long I would still separate them.
                    that's kinda my line of thinking, too...

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                    • For all of you who are confused about the scores, here it is:
                      Sempo: Japan (men, kote) 2 - Korea (kote) 1 (2:1)
                      Jiho: Japan (kote) 1 - Korea (men) 1 (1:1)
                      Chuken: Japan (doh) 1 - Korea 0 (1:0)
                      Fukusho: Japan 0 - Korea 2 (men, men) (0:2)
                      Taisho: Japan 0 - Korea 0

                      Thus, Japan won over Korea 2-1 (4:4). Very close match.

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                      • I realize that this thread is over a year old but this thread showed up in a search while reading a post from a dojomate here in Korea led me back KendoWorld in several years time and had an interesting time reading and watching what had happened.

                        (Appropriately enough, the original post that I was reading was about how my current sensei here in Korea had visited T. Ariga sensei in the States and saw a poster of the Ariga's never called kaeshi-do in the 2000 WKC and how my current sensei was the only person to raise the flag for the strike.)

                        The last WKC matches that I had seen were the ones from Taiwan (there were lot of controversy in that one as well, including the behavior of the US team in the final versus Korea) and then nothing until the WKC from Italy just a couple of weeks ago (I still have yet to see the Brazil WKC). I thought from the Taiwan matches that the quality of kendo shown by Koreans seem to be better than the Japanese (regardless of all the issues about attitude and behavior) and this still seemed to be the case in Italy; just from my opinion, the Korean kendo seemed better than the Japanese. And I thought that the Europeans were getting stronger in their kendo; I am all for kendo becoming an international discipline.

                        As for the Korean kenshis behaviors in the Italy WKC, they were bad. Interestingly enough though, I have never seen this kind of behavior in the few tournaments that I have been to here in Korea. So it seems that these behaviors are confined to the WKCs.

                        A thought to what might be going on is that the Korean kenshis believe that they are being shafted. I don't think that they believe that the shimpans are actively doing this but that the shimpans are naturally biased toward the Japanese kenshi and kendo in the way Curtis sensei described in his post. History plays a part in this since Korea has gotten the short end of the stick in dealings with Japan in the past in many other matters. Hopefully things will change in the future; KendoWorld Forum used to be very Japanese kendo biased when I first started reading and though it still tilts toward that direction, there seems to be more diversity in voice than before.

                        Something to think about: Korea and Japan (divided into East and West Japan) have had yearly competition between their best university level student in the past several years. In the results that I have accessed to, Korea has come out on top more often than Japan (way more). The increasing frustration that Korean kenshis might be showing in the international stage maybe be because they know that Japanese kenshis can be beaten and a number of them have beaten them in other settings. Maybe the international shimpans should be shown videos of these matches to allow them to see, as well, that Japanese kenshis can be beaten. A note, the female kenshis also participate in the Korea/Japan university matches and they basically mirror the results that you see in the WKC competition.

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                        • And a thought about the respect shown to the shimpans by the competitors, no doubt the Korean kenshis attitude should be reprimanded. However, probably a total in your face shimpan!/IKF act that others have not commented on and I would say does not even enter their cognition about what is right and wrong in kendo behavior, is T. Ariga sensei's kaeshi-do. Posters and images of this were made and long circulated and is still around in places (I think E-Bogu used it as PR at one point). This is pretty much flaunting to the world that the shimpans got it wrong. I actually never thought this was bad kendo behavior and even now am okay with it, maybe because I thought that the strike was good? Not sure. But it does raise the question of what we think of as proper kendo behavior and what others might regard as not proper behavior. If the Korean kenshi had not reacted so violently to the call at that time and instead made a poster of his strike (or the opponent's lack of a clean strike) after the competition to be shared with the rest of the world, would our attitude toward him change?

                          Myself, I don't know. And that makes me wonder what sort of biases and perspectives I have when dealing with Korean/Japan, etc. issues.

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