Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Reactions to 15 WKC in Novara

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Yeah I am pretty sure we are just agreeing with each other now. I am saying that it not necessarily "unbudo-like" to offer a hand because of parts of the culture that support such an action. You say that it not necessarily something that has to be done because of parts of the culture that support that idea.
    Last edited by Lloromannic; 31st May 2012, 02:04 AM.

    Comment


    • #92
      Is it just me, or is anyone else kinda glad the WKC is over?

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by DCPan View Post
        That's my point...the whole idea that there is the onus to offer is that of "sportmanship", not that of "budo culture" in my mind. I'm not saying it's bad. I think it's a great moment. I'm just saying it is an interesting clash of values, from my perspective.

        Someone just PMed me and reminded me that to some, the gesture of offering a hand to a fallen opponent can even be perceived as condescending. Think famous scene in "Ame Agaru".

        For me personally, eventhough it is in "yame", accepting the offered hand would be a shifting of power...and I wouldn't want that. Maybe some of you are so good you can get in and out of the zone everytime yame is called. For me, I like to be in the same zone until the match is over, yame or not.

        YMMV.
        In Ame Ageru he was getting completely owned, though. It actually wasn't condescending, because the guy was so outclassed that such words cannot really be said to apply. Any more than 8dan letting you take ippon in keiko is condescension. I don't think the situation here is comparable.
        Last edited by b8amack; 31st May 2012, 08:32 AM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by b8amack View Post
          I disagree with Abramo. Shimpan at this level are not allowed to be horrible. I don't know how Kim didn't beat Takanabe 1-0. And anyone who talks about zanshin or form is crazy. Because no one gave a shit about form when Takanabe struck the floor with his shinai after that tsuki, and only put his shinai back up when he saw a flag raise. That match would have went on until Japan won. People are talking about the Japan/Korea rivalry, but I think it's funny that the only way it looks like Korea will win again is if Japan gets knocked out again and there are Japanese shimpan in the shiai-jo.

          Shimpan need to be accountable, or electric scoring is inevitable. And nobody wants that.
          Fine that you disagree with me, but do it at least about something I said.

          I don't even think the shinpan were that horrible, at least on the team final. On the individuals, I don't know. In any case and more often than not but with notable exceptions, seeing the slow-motions afterwards confirms that the shinpan's calls were good calls, and then everyone forgets that they said, at the moment, "that was no darn men!". The crowds are composed 90% of inexperienced amateurs with no refereeing experience or even basic knowledge, who are further away from the court. What can possibly justify their second-guessing? Demand your money back or whatever, but if you want to shout crap go to the football stadium.

          I don't think shinpan in the shiai-jo should be accountable if I understand what you mean. But there could be a bigger role given to shinpan-shunin and shinpan-cho to enforce rules to keep things in order. But certainly not on uncalled points. Trust their expertise or don't compete.

          Comment


          • #95
            I'm just wondering in practical terms what holding a shimpan to account would mean, aside from not being invited back?

            Comment


            • #96
              I believe many of them are already 7 or 8th dan. Which one are you dare to telll them that they are not invited ???


              Originally posted by dillon View Post
              I'm just wondering in practical terms what holding a shimpan to account would mean, aside from not being invited back?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by b8amack View Post
                In Ame Ageru he was getting completely owned, though. It actually wasn't condescending, because the guy was so outclassed that such words cannot really be said to apply. Any more than 8dan letting you take ippon in keiko is condescension. I don't think the situation here is comparable.
                Maybe it is lost in tranlation, but when the lord was complaining to his lady that the protagonist asking if whether the strike on the hand hurt was adding to insult to injury, that's what it sounded like.

                Regardless, my point is that just because you extended a gesture of goodwill doesn't mean it will be interpreted as such.

                If you don't know your aite, there is potential that it could at least be interpreted as being presumptuous or even condescending.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by rainmaker View Post
                  I believe many of them are already 7 or 8th dan. Which one are you dare to telll them that they are not invited ???
                  I don't think either of them are directly involved in organizing the WKC, so I don't think telling 8th dans they are not invited is really their responsibility.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I am not proposing that I nor anyone else who is outside the organizing authorities get a say in inviting or not inviting senior sensei to give service as shimpan (please read my question carefully, I do make an effort to de-personalize my posts). That's a laughable idea anyway.

                    As well as genuinely wondering what others think could be done, my question was meant to provoke reflection on the give and take involved with shimpan.

                    Shimpan as far as I know donate their time. They do the work as a contribution to kendo and perhaps just get some expenses covered. I therefore cannot think of any way to "hold them to account" for controversial calls other than (for the governing body of course, not us peons in the peanut gallery) to say, "thanks for your time but you can just watch next time."

                    And growing up as an Asian American I dare say even that would not be so simple. East Asian cultures have a different sensibility towards accountability than Western cultures (perhaps in particular Anglo Common Law based ones).

                    Comment


                    • Just watched the five matches and these are my initial conclusions.

                      The first half of the match Korea was forcing the tsuba zeriai and doing so improperly. I felt this was why some of Japan's more questionable ippons got called. Like those two kotes, in isolation I am unsure. But the way I saw it was the Korean fighter(s) seemed so reluctant to leave the semi-tsuba zeriai thing that was all too prevalent, that the bar for the opposing kenshi to score from that position is lowered.

                      Then, once Japan had the upper hand it seemed they were the ones forcing tsuba zeriai and inhibiting more 'proper' kendo for lead protection, and it seemed the Korea team gained some of the poise it was lacking earlier on.

                      All in all I was disappointed with some of the Korean fighters' overtly emotive actions and I think those occurrences, in combination with the Korean fan-squad conduct, and the discrepancy in helping up a fallen aite reveals some very interesting contrasts between kendo and kumdo and what the two things mean to their respective nation.

                      Mostly though it bothers me that these matches are supposed to represent the highest level of competitive kendo in the world, yet two minutes in you feel like you're watching a boxing match.

                      Maybe this is just how the WKC was meant to be though...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NigelSponge View Post
                        Mostly though it bothers me that these matches are supposed to represent the highest level of competitive kendo in the world, yet two minutes in you feel like you're watching a boxing match.

                        Maybe this is just how the WKC was meant to be though...
                        I think the WKC is only nominally the "best" kendo competition in the world. In terms of actually seeing kendo that represents the best we should all aspire to, the Tozai Taiko is much preferable.

                        b

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dillon View Post
                          I'm just wondering in practical terms what holding a shimpan to account would mean, aside from not being invited back?
                          What it really means is that the person who is not happy with the result will keep appealing further and further up the chain of command until they get the result they want.

                          Or they can just deal with it and move on.

                          b

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ben View Post
                            What it really means is that the person who is not happy with the result will keep appealing further and further up the chain of command until they get the result they want.
                            Well, I suppose that would be one way to deal with it. Going from a no appeal to an infinite appeal process. A pretty extreme change in the opposite direction, though. I was thinking something more sensible, but whatever.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rfoxmich View Post
                              <flame>
                              I am sick and tired of kenshi throwing their head back in the air when an ippon is called. I am equally sick of kenshi glaring in disbelief when an ippon is called. I see this in competitions in the U.S. now I suppose it should be no surprise I see it in the World Champs. I think shinpan need to take control of that. Fair warning to those who compete in matches where I am shushin...if I see that I'm calling a gogi and we're going to discuss whether we need to tack a hansoku on to the ippon. If you're not sure why I can do this, read Art. 16 or the Shiai rules.
                              </flame>

                              I call on all on this forum who do shinpan to join me in this. We can make a difference and we should.

                              Shame on the Japan team for putting not losing ahead of trying to win.
                              Shame on the Korean team for acting like a bunch of drama queens.
                              Shinpan...well we know they can always improve. As the head referee in the match once said to me...we need more shinpan seminar and more practice.
                              +1 to that from me too. Petulant kenshi look out!

                              b

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ben View Post
                                +1 to that from me too. Petulant kenshi look out!

                                b
                                So... kenshi should be accountable for horrible performance, but not shinpan. The two relate.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X