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Feedback needed on diagram please!

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  • Feedback needed on diagram please!

    I contructed this diagram to help myself visualise the different timing concepts in kendo. I have checked it as far as I am able to, so if anyone has any feedback or corrections they would be gratefully received! I am more than happy for people to copy it and use it as a resource if it is found to be correct or once it has been corrected. I'm sure it will start some discussion whatever happens. Let me know what you think.

    b


  • #2
    Looks pretty damn good to me. I am a noob so not sure on the wazas but the diagram is very clear, well laid out and to be honest looks cool!

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    • #3
      Ben - that is one bloody good diagram!!

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      • #4
        Maybe it would be good to add ai-uchi waza in Okosu no tokoro

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        • #5
          Aiuchi in okosu - splendid!

          Of course! [slaps forehead] Thanks Lloro! Exactly why I posted here. I'll collect everyone's comments and repost a version 2.

          b

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          • #6
            Hi Ben,

            There is a similar diagram in "Nito-Ryu no Waza to Riron".

            I'll check it when I get home.

            BTW, I mention the above book because it changes the explanation of sen to "when you take the center".

            FWIW.

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            • #7
              I believe the three timings are sen no sen, sen sen no sen and go no sen.

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              • #8
                http://www.kendo-usa.org/reference/studyguide.htm

                Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
                I believe the three timings are sen no sen, sen sen no sen and go no sen.
                Really depends on "who's" mittsu-no-sen you are talking about. Below is copied from the STUDY GUIDE FOR KENDO PROMOTIONAL EXAMINATION from Kendo USA website.


                Mittsu-no-sen or the three attacks. According to Miyamoto Musashi there are three sen:

                -Ken-no-Sen, you attack just before the opponent.

                -Tai-no-Sen, the opponent attacks first but you strike first and win.

                -Tai-Tai-no-Sen, both attack at the same time but your cut is first and wins.

                Takano Sasaburo explained the mittsu-no-sen as:

                -Sensen-no-sen or kakari-no-sen: to use seme and then strike the opponent just before he moves when their mind has committed to attack.

                -Go-no-Sen or Sengo-no-sen or Tai-no-sen: when the opponent has started their technique but the action is not completed. Move effectively avoiding their cut and strike yourself.

                -Sen or Senzen-no-Sen: when the opponent is in mid-attack deflect it and counter attack.

                If you study the strategy of the kata you gain an understanding of mittsu-no-sen.

                Comment


                • #9
                  ben, what is oikomi? perhaps this is the first time i've heard this term...

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                  • #10
                    uhmm what's the kanji for all these terms (or did you just make it up )?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paburo
                      ben, what is oikomi? perhaps this is the first time i've heard this term...
                      I believe Oikomi is chasing the opponent down...such as in a situation where the opponent did a hiki-waza on you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mingshi
                        uhmm what's the kanji for all these terms (or did you just make it up )?
                        I'm going on the 1996 edition of the ZNKR's Japanese-English Kendo Dictionary, pp 69-70, The Australian Kendo Renmei/NCAS Level One Coaching Course Manual, "This is Kendo" by Sasamori and Warner, and personal communication with Nagae Sumitaka sensei (Kyoshi 7 dan). I don't have a Japanese character set so can't write them for you here.

                        b

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                        • #13
                          I'm very new to kendo (only 2 months of practice so far), and I struggle to make sense of the drawings. Is there supposed to be some connection between the stick-men and the descriptions (because i'm really not getting it...)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by xorandor
                            I'm very new to kendo (only 2 months of practice so far), and I struggle to make sense of the drawings. Is there supposed to be some connection between the stick-men and the descriptions (because i'm really not getting it...)
                            Xorander - I'm pretty new to kendo myself. My understanding of the diagram is that it is showing the different stages of an opponents attack - at each stage the grey shinai is where it was at the previous stage and the black shinai is where it is in the current stage. Each of these stages are potentially where you could initiate an attack/counter yourself and the text describes the possible techniques you could apply at the various stages.

                            Hope I have understood the diagram correctly, and also hope it makes things clearer to you (assuming I am right!)

                            Cheers

                            PS Ben - really like the diagram (again, assuming I have read it right!)
                            Last edited by Trout; 23rd December 2004, 07:35 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mingshi
                              uhmm what's the kanji for all these terms (or did you just make it up )?
                              This is all a bit confused even in Japanese. Maybe the following will help.

                              8・ 三つの先


                              先とは機先を制することで、ことに剣道においては機先を制することが、大切である。
                              これに三つの場合があり、先々の先、先、後の先である。

                              (1)先々の先
                              相手の起りの気を早く察知して、直ちに打ち込み、機先を制するのであって、
                              相手が動作を起こさない前に、相手の先に先じて、直ちに打つ先である。
                              未だ声もなく形なきにこれを察知し、自分から形にあらわして懸かりゆく
                              ものであるから、懸かりの先ともいう。

                              (2)先
                              隙を認め相手より打ち込んでくるのを、相手の先を取って勝つのである。
                              即ち摺り上げ、応じ返し、体をかわして引き外しなどして、
                              自分が先になって勝つのである。相手からも懸かり、相対抗して勝つので
                              「対の先」または「先前の先」ともいう。

                              (3)後の先
                              隙を認めて相手から打ち込んでこるのを切り落とし、太刀をしのぎなどして、
                              相手の気勢のゆるむところを、強く打ち込んで勝つのをいう。
                              故に「待の先」または「先後の先」ともいう。
                              Mitsu-no-sen

                              "Sen" is to seize the initiative, and this concept if particularly important when it comes to kendo.
                              There are three "sen" situations; "sen-sen-no-sen", "sen" and "go-no-sen".

                              (1) Sen-sen-no-sen
                              This is to watch for the opponent's intention of hitting and seize initiative by hitting straight away. For this "sen" you should hit straight away before the opponent has begun to move. You need to be able to read this before the movement has been formed and manifest "sen" in your own movements by attacking. because of this this "sen" is also called "kakari-no-sen".

                              (2) Sen
                              In this "sen" you recognise the opening in the opponent and win by hitting first as the opponent comes forward to hit you. In other words you use suri-age, ohji-kaeshi, avoid the opponent with your body movement etc to win by taking the initiative and putting yourself in a position of advantage. In this case you and your opponent attack together so this "sen" is also called "tai-no-sen" or "sen-zen-no-sen".

                              (3) Go-no-sen
                              Recognise the opponent's opening, endure the opponent's attack and hit strongly at the point where the opponent's momentum has been spent.
                              Therefore this "sen" is also called ( 待の先 - I'm not sure whether this should be "tai-no-sen" or "machi-no-sen"; I think probably the former) or "Sen-go-no-sen".
                              Loose translation. Please refer here for the original.

                              Another explanation is here

                              You might also find the discussion on Ichinikai to be of interest.

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