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  • #76
    Well, from a kendo perspective minor cuts don't count because of the fact the bogu simulates armour. Tapping a person on the arm won't cut through the gauntlet...so strikes have to be decisive.

    Now we can't possibly strike with real kenjutsu tenouchi (as Hyaku Sensei pounted out, in Koryu, good tenouchi is when the blade stops an inch from the ground). If we hit a kendoka like that, they'd be maimed...so we essentially use the running through action(zanshin) to simulate this. To make a cut we have to show our entire spirit, body and sword is behind it. No tapping or wild swings.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by tango
      I can't speak for anyone else, but I can say that it is not MY intention to do that.
      I know...but I can see the thread heading up the dark path...its sorta edging there...hahaha

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      • #78
        Lance is very competetive and this is especially reflected in forums, on the other hand he seems to welcome guys from all over who spar with him and is often gracious in his reaction. He may just be one of those guys who tends to clash online. I think he's also matured a lot over the years I've interracted with him.

        DB

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        • #79
          Originally posted by KhawMengLee
          Well, from a kendo perspective minor cuts don't count because of the fact the bogu simulates armour. Tapping a person on the arm won't cut through the gauntlet...so strikes have to be decisive.
          Now we can't possibly strike with real kenjutsu tenouchi (as Hyaku Sensei pounted out, in Koryu, good tenouchi is when the blade stops an inch from the ground). If we hit a kendoka like that, they'd be maimed...so we essentially use the running through action(zanshin) to simulate this. To make a cut we have to show our entire spirit, body and sword is behind it. No tapping or wild swings.
          Keep in mind the WMA videos which have been linked here are rather different in style. I agree the assumption of armor or no armor is a big difference. One of the things we do in WMA though is test-cutting with sharps. There is a great free video avaialble from cold steel knives which can give you a very good idea of the effectiveness of a cut from both western and asian type swords. Partially or fully severing a hand is not very difficult.

          As for tapping, if I felt that someone just tapped me with a weapon I wouldn't agknowledge the hit. A hit is supposed to have proper follow-through and edge placement. Thats one other advantage of using weapons with some actual edge-geometry, you can tell a cut vs. a slap. Thats probably the most important thing I learned doing test-cutting. The difference between a correct (lethal) cut and a botched cut is 99% correct form, maybe 1% strength. The concentration required to cut properly is profound, at least as much as that needed just for fighting.

          Of course with padded wasters or shanai, a cut is sometimes going to stop or bounce off of a target since they don't actually cut through, thats inevitable.

          As for wild swings, if you swing wildly in WMA you are inviting a lethal countercut or stop-thrust.

          DB

          P.S. the concept of the Mastercut in German fencing I think is similar to the cutting philosophy in Japanese fencing generally. Master cuts are designed to cut the enemy while sumultaneously displacing by cutting off the avenue for attack. The German Masters even insist that you must concentrate fully on attacking with perfect form, and actually ignore what your opponent is doing. Though this sounds almost suicidal, it is the only way to make a misterhau work.

          For example, someone is cutting downward from a Vom Tag (over the head, centered) a properly timed side-cut will cut them while saving you. Doing this in drill is one thing, doing this while sparing full speed.. if you have any fear, you will not pull it off.
          Last edited by Drifter Bob; 22nd April 2006, 02:52 AM.

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          • #80
            That should be zwerchau not schleihau...

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Drifter Bob
              Lance Chan who is a WMA practitioner in Hong Kong has some very interesting clips of himself sparring with a Gumdo champion from Hong Kong. I think Gumdo (SP?) is a Korean variant of Kendo.
              Got curious - the only clips I can find on his site are with someone labelled "Korea Haedong Gumdo". Haedong Gumdo is a completely made up style with no real connection to either traditional korean styles or to kendo (which the Koreans call kumdo, so I can see where it is easy to confuse them).

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              • #82
                Some drills, demonstrating ringen am schwart (wrestling from the sword, basically throws in this case)

                These are courtesy of David Knight from ARMA South Florida

                http://www.paulushectormair.com/ARMA/throw1.wmv
                http://www.paulushectormair.com/ARMA/throw2.wmv
                http://www.paulushectormair.com/ARMA/throw3.wmv
                http://www.paulushectormair.com/ARMA/throw4.wmv
                http://www.paulushectormair.com/ARMA/throw5.wmv

                DB

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
                  Got curious - the only clips I can find on his site are with someone labelled "Korea Haedong Gumdo". Haedong Gumdo is a completely made up style with no real connection to either traditional korean styles or to kendo (which the Koreans call kumdo, so I can see where it is easy to confuse them).
                  Sorry, can't comment on that not knowing a thing about either. I found the bouts interesting to watch though.

                  DB

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                  • #84
                    I'm happy to see this thread has gone throu a very "safe" path, even if with some upheaveals, but ok mostly. It's being quite on the track.

                    Now, regarding the "approach" of Japanese swordsmanship (Kendo, mostly) and WMA.

                    Let's remember that Kendo and many of the current japanese swordsmanship styles were heavily influenced by Edo-period way of thinking. Bushido, Hagakure, long-term peace and the static caste social structure were a heavy influence on samurai ad their way of thinking. But sword fighting had more of a "practical" approach during Sengoku Jidai, when the nowadays JSA come from originally, than "philosophical", when surviving was more important than "beautiful" cuts. Also bear in mind that dueling was the norm during the Tokugawa period rather than armor-clad large-armies war fighting.

                    In my opinion, Kendo has a lot of Edo-period way of thinking, and that's reflected in the official purpose of Kendo and the way every kendoka commit during training. Maybe that bias our way of perceiving, and even evaluating, any WMA, where killing the opponent and surviving with all your limbs is still the paramount objective, quite "alien" to us who train Kendo or JSA, but not invalid because of that. Just different.

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                    • #85
                      Do not transpose the idea of striking without caring for your own safety to all JSA. Many Kenjutsu styles prioritize the fact of staying alive. Yagyu Munenori (from Yagyu Shinkage ryu) said so himself in his book of family traditions: It's very easy to cut someone, but it is very hard not to be cut.

                      Kendo has many concepts wich are alien to many kenjutsu, and each one of them as some unique approach to combat. Let's not forget it.

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                      • #86
                        From my point of view this thread has gone from what could have been considered as insulting what we do to some state of mutual understanding - that's got to be a good thing, as I think respect is a big part of both culture's martial arts. I think we can pat ourselves on our communal backs for that .

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Max C.
                          Do not transpose the idea of striking without caring for your own safety to all JSA. Many Kenjutsu styles prioritize the fact of staying alive. Yagyu Munenori (from Yagyu Shinkage ryu) said so himself in his book of family traditions: It's very easy to cut someone, but it is very hard not to be cut.

                          Kendo has many concepts wich are alien to many kenjutsu, and each one of them as some unique approach to combat. Let's not forget it.
                          Agree. Thanks for pointing that out. I agree on that as well, but I guess it wasn't that clear in my post, thou that's the reason a said "many", not "all".

                          Again, thanks for the clear point.

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                          • #88
                            No problem, it's just that sometimes people tend to think that iaido and kendo are all there is to JSA when there is much more. Hopefully it is a tendency wich is slowly dissapering as kenjutsu is exapnding.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by nodachi
                              the striking without fear of losing body parts is an important aspect of kendo and probably all Japanese sword arts. Someone can correct me if I am wrong with the vocab, but I think the concepts are called sutemi. You commit 100% to your attack without fear for the consequences on yourself. Obviously you don't rush in when it is not smart to do so, but when you attack, you attack completely. A kendo proverb is to "throw your body away" (crappy sounding translation). Mi o suteru, I think. If you are worried about losing a finger here or there, then your technique will be crappy. Usually the people who successfully commit 100% without fear of losing fingers or getting hit back are the ones to get through an attack unscathed.

                              Of course like you said, often comparing martial arts is like apples to oranges, but I thought I would share these concepts with you. Do these ideas exist in your art?


                              Hanko Doebringer who we think is a German priest/fighting master, talk's about a simlar concept on a few occasion's.

                              Doebringer
                              "Also know that when you wish to fence in earnest, then you shall have a finished piece in your mind, any technique you want that is complete and correct and hold it in all seriousness and firmly in your mind when you want to close with him as if you would say "This is what i intend!"

                              "Also when you want to fence strongly, then fence from the left side with the whole body and with full force to the head and to the body where ever you can hit and never do to his sword, but as if he does not have a sword or as if you cannot see."

                              alot of the combat concept's of WMA, AMA, are very similar when it is thought of or taught in term's of using steel weapon's in a fight.

                              Alot of time's when it become's a sport it become's more tidy, more "beautiful" because there are rule's and less danger thing's become slower and more controled or someone would get hurt.

                              As far as armour/protection, alot of what I do is what is known in German as blossenfechten, open or unarmoured fighting, and was engaged in fairly frequently in the period between 1300-1700, we do try to use alot of control to keep from injuring each other and we do wear head protection.

                              Jeff

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                              • #90
                                One of the interesting things I have learned about WMA is that correct technique will actually protect you from those annoying cuts to the fingers etc. There is a reason for the guards, there is a reason for staying in the guards and shift from guard to guard, rather than mushing around in all kinds of intermediate positions. There is a reason for correct footwork et al.

                                It's a real eye opener when you realise that the applied techniqes, even something as simple as learning the 5 basic guards and sticking to them with correct form, will actually lead you to win bouts against less experienced but equally or more athletic or quick or strong opponents, without any rules to enforce a certain way of fighting. The more elegant looking fighter with the tighter form is usually the better fighter.

                                In other words, it's interesting to see it actually work unleashed from any restraint or guidlinees.

                                DB

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