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  • Gladiator School????

    O - M - G !!

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...887401&q=kendo

    and they call that tradition???

  • #2
    Originally posted by Rurouni Kenshin
    O - M - G !!

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...887401&q=kendo

    and they call that tradition???
    Damn! they has the most awful kamae, would be real easy to tsuki them, and what about the way they attack? it seems totally random

    Comment


    • #3
      Heh,

      Our primary area of research and training is the fighting system of the renowned medieval Italian Master of Arms Fiore dei Liberi, as explored in the three surviving versions of his 15th century treatise 'Fior di Battalglia', or 'Flower of Battle'.
      Yea, right - too much cartoons if you'd ask me

      Comment


      • #4
        I did see a special on the history channel once about medieval war fare and fighting through the ages with armor and such. It might have been PBS actually, I forget. One thing was that because there was such thick, well protecting armor the only option was to go for the joints between major sections of armor or mash people inside their armor, like denting a can to hurt the insides. In order to do so with medieval weapons which frequently were not meant for finese, much of the fighting being shown and described by the supposedly well informed historian looked a lot like people clumsily crashing into each other to get the chance to get a knife or blade into the weak points of the persons armor or just mashing the crap out of each other with big maces or other blunt weapons.

        My point is that the fighting style could just be very different and required smashing people so they became wounded and all soft and squishy inside the armor. It didn't necessarily look pretty...

        Of course I still admit that there is the great possibility that this group is just a bunch of sword wielding wannabes. That is my impression, but what do I know...

        Comment


        • #5
          A friend of mine who spent a semester in Scottland told me that when he visited a museum that had an exhibit on armor and weapons from that era he was told that the armor actually was quite well articulated and people could easily move around in them. I'm sure this was compounded by the fact that the metal wasn't all that light so the weight probably slowed them down but the whole smashing your opponent idea makes sense if you look at the weapons from that time. Broadswords and what not were big and heavy so it really wouldn't matter if you tried to slash at the person so your best bet would be to just bash them as hard and as often as you can.

          Also, I heard that in Rome there are these "Gladiator Schools" for tourists and they show people how to fight with a gladius and let them go at it for a while. To me it's not that different from Civil War reenactors dressing up in Union or Southern army uniforms and firing musket blanks at each other. Nor is it that different from how some Japanese put on yoroi and reenact famous battles. In the end, I say to each their own.

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          • #6
            Did that happen to be the Kelvinside museum?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Commander
              Did that happen to be the Kelvinside museum?
              Actually, I made a slight mistake. My friend was in Scottlad for a semester but the postcard he sent actually was from The War Gallery at the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, England. Guess this means I need to read things a little more carefully.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Greger
                would be real easy to tsuki them,
                but pointless since in combat their neck would have been protected by a hardened steel plate shaped to deflect such a blow. Imagine trying to stick a sword through the outside corner of a piece of angle iron.

                Originally posted by nodachi
                One thing was that because there was such thick, well protecting armor the only option was to go for the joints between major sections of armor or mash people inside their armor, like denting a can to hurt the insides.
                In the latter part of the middle ages, the armor knights wore got so good that they quit using shields for two reasons, first being that the shield wasn't much additional protection anymore, second was that the other guy's armor was really good as well, so to do serious damage through his armor you needed a long, heavy weapon, which required two hands. This is when things like poleaxes, halberds, bills, and greatswords started coming into more common usage

                Originally posted by nodachi
                My point is that the fighting style could just be very different and required smashing people so they became wounded and all soft and squishy inside the armor.
                Modern research supports the idea that you didn't even have to necessarily even penetrate the armor. I've seen slow motion video of the shock wave generated in a block of ballistic gelatin inside a breastplate which was whacked with a big war hammer. The show claimed such a blow would destroy internal organs even though there was minimal damage to the armor.

                Of they could still be a just a bunch of goofballs, but because they do things differently than the Japanese way we on these boards are used to doesn't automatically make them goofballs.

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                • #9
                  I also agree with some of the previous replys.

                  This kind of fighting is quite different from the one we're fond of.
                  They're not using bogu, and just shinai for the safeness of it, thou modified (I see a broadsword handguard on the "sword" of the guy up front) for their needs.

                  We can't judge what they're doing based on what we learn. Weapons and armor were quite different from East and West, and even within Europe you get to see quite different branches of fighting styles along the centuries.

                  Kamae? Come on!!! Try doing Kendo chuudan with a bastard sword for 30 seconds. This a whole different monster. I don't see the point of flaming these guys we don't know much (anything, maybe?) about what they're doing.

                  Thou I agree that relating the word "Kendo" with it in the video or page is totally misguiding.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Galo
                    We can't judge what they're doing based on what we learn. Weapons and armor were quite different from East and West, and even within Europe you get to see quite different branches of fighting styles along the centuries.

                    Kamae? Come on!!! Try doing Kendo chuudan with a bastard sword for 30 seconds. This a whole different monster. I don't see the point of flaming these guys we don't know much (anything, maybe?) about what they're doing.
                    Thanks very much for the benefit of the doubt Galo, it's very much appreciated. Our efforts concentrate upon an attempt to reconstruct Medieval Longsword arts from manuscripts that still survive from the 15th Century.

                    I suppose this 'modern discipline' is still rather young and there is yet much to be thrashed out. Interpretation of these manuscripts is by no means an easy task and so a feedback between these primary sources and attempts to get them to actually work in sparring seems to be a fruitful approach.

                    To this end we attempt to gain assistance from practitioners from other martial arts to aid us in our efforts. However, although such asstance from such more established arts is most useful, we must be wary that we do not import too much from other disciplines lest we misinterpret the very manuscripts we attempt to revive.

                    Our efforts and our primary sources are detailed at our website - http://www.fioredeiliberi.org
                    Originally posted by Galo
                    They're not using bogu, and just shinai for the safeness of it, thou modified (I see a broadsword handguard on the "sword" of the guy up front) for their needs.
                    Yes indeed we have simply adopted your shinai in our sparring simply as a safety measure, and a fine tool for such a purpose it is too. Thanks.

                    However, we do find that we have to modify the shinai slightly to better represent the weapon detailed in our sources. In particular we increase the weight to over 2lb and find that we must add a cross guard to perform some of our repertoire.
                    Originally posted by Galo
                    Thou I agree that relating the word "Kendo" with it in the video or page is totally misguiding.
                    Yeah, sorry about that. However, other longsword groups spar with wood, rattan or steel and therefore often ask us what we spar with. So, I thought it best to include a description of what we were using.

                    Anyway, hope our efforts with the shinai haven't offended too many folk by borrowing some of your kit.
                    Last edited by ScholaDays; 20th April 2006, 09:08 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lemi
                      Yea, right - too much cartoons if you'd ask me
                      Indeed, funny you should say that, for the cartoons in question can be found here - http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/getty/...iocolargo.html

                      Last edited by ScholaDays; 20th April 2006, 09:09 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Greger
                        Damn! they has the most awful kamae, would be real easy to tsuki them,
                        Right, by use of Wikipedia I've tried to interpret these terms to respond and I am assuming that you are objecting to the guard we adopt with the weapon cocked right back onto our shoulder. I'm also assuming that the attack you suggest is a thrust or cut the the neck. Hopefully I'm correct but I am just guessing so excuse me if I am wrong.

                        In our discipline the entire body is a target to a cut or a thrust. As a result the manuscripts reccomend that we adopt this guard to protect our hands and arms from sniping attacks lest we lose all our fingers and drop the weapon.

                        In addition, as we are free to close, punch, kick and grapple we must be wary of inviting our opponent to close upon us, take hold of our weapon or sword arm to either disable our use of it for a moment, or disarm us altogether.

                        Thus we are directed to pull the weapon away from the opponent and adopt this guard.

                        To protect ourselves from a blow to the neck is not necessarily left to armour. In fact, as a consequence of adopting this guard to avoid a thrust or cut to the neck we must learn to cut forwards into the opponent's blade once such an attack is launched and exchange his thrust for our thrust.

                        Anyway, I hope that answers your query.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi guys,
                          To be fair, what we do is not like kendo, as ScholaDays has said above. Kendo has specific target areas and for something to 'count' it has to be executed according to the rules, as I understand it. What we are attempting to do would be better compared with kenjitsu or bujinkan rather than kendo. A cut to a limb could quickly result in incapacitation, and as this is a European martial art (not sport) 'anything goes' - grappling, throws, disarms are a mainstay of both European medieval systems and Japanese systems like budo and kenjitsu. We also have two edges on a European sword, so we cut with both edges, as taught by the medeival and renaissance treatises. A rising cut with the back edge into someone's wrist could quite literally end the fight. When we come close we do not act in the same way as kendoka at all; in the sources we work from it is advised to grab an opponent's blade or limbs, or to disarm them, throw them, lock their arms and stab them at close range, if possible. These elements no longer really exist in kendo, but they do in kenjitsu, iaido, bujinkan etc (ie. the old martial arts that kendo grew out of).

                          Because there are so many parameters in our system the bouts can of course look scrappy - this is true of any combatives system that does not have very limiting rules - for example MMA, military combatives, sambo, krav maga, savate, la canne, escrima, kali etc. Kendo does generally look tidier, but I think it's fair to say that one reason for this is that you have less options to worry about - when I am bouting I might get kneed in the groin, wrestled to the floor or have a weapon thrown at me! (yes this is described by medieval treatises as well).

                          A brief comment on medieval armour: armour is heavy, but it is distributed around your body, attached at different points, so the weight is spread. You can do basic gymnastics in armour! Hitting plate armour with a sword is generally considered by us (and the medieval sources) to be a waste of time, because a sword will not really do any serious damage in this way. A pollaxe or heavier weapon will, and this is why these weapons developed and became popular. A sword is used in two basic ways against plate armour - the thrust between plates, and as a lever in grappling - the left hand is often used on the blade (as in bujinkan and kenjitsu) to assist in wrestling and also to make it easier to get the point into an arm-pit, groin or face of an armoured opponent.

                          Lastly - I have attended a few lessons of kendo some years ago, but I'm afraid you're going to have to help me out with the terminology here - Greger said: "Damn! they has the most awful kamae, would be real easy to tsuki them". What does this mean? Greger may well have a good point, and this might be a weakness in our repertoir, but maybe I can explain whether it is or not if you explain to us what this means.

                          Thanks,
                          Matt Easton
                          Schola Gladiatoria
                          www.fioredeiliberi.org

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Commander
                            Did that happen to be the Kelvinside museum?
                            It's called Kelvingrove by the way .

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                            • #15
                              p.s. We add a weight to our shinai, as ScholaDays said - it's surprising how much doubling the weight (to be more realistic for a longsword, or a katana/tachi for that matter!) changes things. We found that using a shinai without a weight meant that the weapon was so light compared to a real sword that it changed our style to something more resembling a stick fighting style such as grande canne or singlestick.

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