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  • Ki in Kendo-Article for Download from Kendo World Journal 4.1

    Professor Oya Minoru (K 7-dan) is a notbale researcher at the International Budo University. For the last couple of years, Kendo World Journal has been serializing sections from his book "Reidan-jichi". The topics he covers are highly philosophical in nature, and it is difficult to find similar information in English. The following article for download was published in Kendo World Journal 4.1 in December 2007.

    Journal: 4.1 'Ki' by Professor Oya Minoru
    http://www.kendo-world.com/downloads.php

    Please leave any comments here.

  • #2
    You know, it's great to know there's someone doing this things.
    Thanks for the article Mr Bennett.

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    • #3
      Very interesting article, thanks for uploading it.

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      • #4
        Thanks for great article!

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        • #5
          Thanks Alex, and to the other contributors who made it happen. As always much appreciate it.

          p.s Holly sh*t, that article was so deep that I had to read it 3, 4 times to internalize it.
          Last edited by Masahiro; 19th March 2009, 02:28 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Alex, really sorry to bother you. But if i may, I have the following questions

            1)why is there water mark of " rei dan ji chi"? I understand the meaning perfectly, but i am sure it can't be just talking about temperature. Is it a metaphor for the main topic (ki, and the association/cultivation of it) of the article?

            2)in the 2nd paragraph under the "life-force and signs". In this sentence "The mind may be good or evil, depending on whether the ki after leaving the door open and going outside....

            shouldn't the "ki"(highlighted in red) mentioned be the "sign"/manifestation and not the life force "ki"? Was it a mix up? Or do i just not know what the hell i read?

            thanks a lot in advance Alex.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Masahiro View Post
              2)in the 2nd paragraph under the "life-force and signs". In this sentence "The mind may be good or evil, depending on whether the ki after leaving the door open and going outside....

              shouldn't the "ki"(highlighted in red) mentioned be the "sign"/manifestation and not the life force "ki"? Was it a mix up? Or do i just not know what the hell i read?
              It is the "sign/manifestation" ki. What's the mix-up?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Josh Reyer View Post
                It is the "sign/manifestation" ki. What's the mix-up?
                meaning i think the "ki" (in kanji) in the phrase may not be the right one, i thought it might be more fitting if the "ki" (life energy) was the used.

                did you really understand what I wrote? or did you read what i wrote and just blurred out a response out of haste??

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                • #9
                  wait Josh, i apologize. I just re-read what i wrote in the post you quoted. O.k that was stupid of me. I meant to say, i think the "ki" should be switched. Sorry, sorry.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Masahiro View Post
                    Thanks Alex, and to the other contributors who made it happen. As always much appreciate it.

                    p.s Holly sh*t, that article was so deep that I had to read it 3, 4 times to internalize it.
                    Jesus, only 3, 4 times? I am still chewing on it again and I couldn't count how many time. May be my English is not that good

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hey now, I know u are teasing!

                      I didn't say how long it took me to read it though, I probably spent close to 5 hours, reading, interpreting, analyzing, looking up old Japanese books on the topic I had, drawing down notes, then drawing diagrams and finally making my own notes about the article. And then readng over my notesand cross reference it with the original to make sure they are correct and condensed version!!

                      I haven't internalized this process yet, I have only "comprehend" the text! I will spent a good deal of the next 12 years trying to find the real application as it applies to me!! So I don't mean to be sounding so snoberish or like a know it all.

                      But i am really happy about this article!! The timing couldnt have been better, in another thread i posted i mentioned about "Kamei sensei's procee of keiko", combine the two articles and some other terms and I mean this is it! If we know what to do, and is able to do it, we will be that much closer to doing what we are all striving for but can not fully obtain!! No?!
                      Last edited by Masahiro; 20th March 2009, 12:24 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Masahiro View Post
                        wait Josh, i apologize. I just re-read what i wrote in the post you quoted. O.k that was stupid of me. I meant to say, i think the "ki" should be switched. Sorry, sorry.
                        Well, 機 (signs/manifestation) is what it is in the original.

                        心の善悪にわかるは、この機から外へ出て、善に行くも、悪に行くも、此機によりて分るゝ也。

                        But the whole point of this passage is that Munenori is saying that 機 is 気, and the next sentence notes that the 気 that guards door is called 機.

                        The greater context of the passage is that Munenori is explaining the phrase 大機大用 (Wilson translates this to "Great Potential, Great Function"), and essentially explaining how thought or intent becomes manifested as action. So he's making a connection between the 機 of 大機, and the 気 that he earlier in the book described as the "messenger of the master (the mind)".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Josh Reyer View Post

                          心の善悪にわかるは、この機から外へ出て、善に行くも、悪に行くも、此機によりて分るゝ也。

                          The greater context of the passage is that Munenori is explaining the phrase 大機大用 (Wilson translates this to "Great Potential, Great Function"), and essentially explaining how thought or intent becomes manifested as action. So he's making a connection between the 機 of 大機, and the 気 that he earlier in the book described as the "messenger of the master (the mind)".
                          Excellent supplemental material Josh, where the hell did you dig that up from? unless you have the article itself, hmmm. i am jealous.

                          I guess I look at "機" more as "opportunity" as in "機会", rather than "signs". Because that would make more sense to me. The sentence you gave above then would translate to...

                          "regardless whether nature of the heart is of evil or good,
                          through the door(機), the nature of the will (good or evil) is understood when given the opportunity (機)"

                          Originally posted by Josh Reyer
                          ...explaining how thought or intent becomes manifested as action
                          I don't understand the *reasoning* behind Munenori's words when he said "気 that guards door is called 機". Of course, i am not challenging a great expert's words. I just think it might be more fitting if Munenori were to say the "機 is in essence a window to which you are able to gain insight to a person's 気", please bare with me in my linear logical reason below. (let me know if it doesn't make any sense, it doesn't always have to, i am not the expert in this. So i would appreciate any comments.)

                          1)According to the article Alex posted "気" is not "感覚" (feeling) nor "意志" (will), rather it is "derived"/drawn forth from both together.

                          2)but we know that "気" is nothing by itself, it is a stimulus that acts in pair with the " 心 " (the mind, in this case) to execute the "技". And the " 心" is able to perceive and "判断" in an instant what decision to make. Whether or not it's the right choice is a different story.

                          3) so wouldn't it be more fitting to say that "機" is not a manifestation of "気" as it was some "physical evident". But rather a "window", something less tangible to the naked eye. (As well as a gate way by which we can gain knowledge to the mind, the ki) Further more if we were to look at the process from as 3rd party then the "機" would be translated as "opportunity". Since "心" can be all (or just one) the mind, heart or the will.


                          Does that make any sense? No? Oh and if you could please enlighten me on what "大機大用" is? I mean i know it literally means "big signs/opportunity, big use". .. but what does it apply to?

                          you have my thanks in advance,
                          Last edited by Masahiro; 20th March 2009, 03:28 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Intent is a very, very weird thing. I hope I don't loose anyone here as this really has to be felt to be appreciated.

                            I was at a Mike Sigman seminar last weekend, a rather con traversal internal martial arts guy in the online world. Anyways we were performing some intent exercises, where person A was pushing on the other, and the pushee (B) uses intent to direct the other person off balance via their back gate (think 45 degrees off the your center line in chudan in the direction across from the left heel). The B does not engage the upper body at all to twist and push A off balance, rather the A doesn't feel a push from B at all. Rather they feel themselves suddenly moving from no apparent source at all, they just feel themselves pushing into B, though perhaps that push feels "lighter" because now they no longer feel the resistance from their push as B has taken their center and redirected the push.

                            B sets up a ground path (aligns his body in such a way that when A pushes on B, he pushes into the ground via the skeletal system/connective tissue rather than B using muscle to push back, think how guy wires on a bridge/tower transmit loads) and connects to A's center of balance. B is able to "will" that path from the ground into any position, hence the position/posture is not what controls the ground path, it's my "will" or "intent". This is B reflecting A's energy and what it really means to use someone's energy against them. B can utilize intent to get "under" A's push without physically dropping their body lower than A's center of gravity. B can use intent to push A in any direction A is weak.

                            Now maybe B's "will" or "intent" results in fascia contracting which causes the movement, maybe its micro muscular contractions, maybe its the skeletal system routing movement from the legs, but if A feels B's arms they won't feel them engaging at all to push them in the hole. This is why when you feel high ranking old guys in various martial arts they feel "strong" or "heavy" even if they no longer have big muscles associated with "normal" strength.

                            This is what itsutsu no kata, and ju no kata in Judo are working on.

                            So some of you are thinking, great HL1978, how does pushing on one another ever relate to kendo. Well....

                            In kendo we are fighting for center. When one person gains control of the center line they have control of the others body, they lunge and can attack men. Kendoka quickly learn that using the arms to push back on the other persons shinai does not work for a wide variety of reasons I don't want to get in here, but we have all experienced in keiko.

                            What I believe Professor Oya Minoru is referring to is something along the lines of what I described above:
                            1) Person A pushes against person B's shinai.
                            2)Person B sets up a ground path (see above) against A's shinai contact, without any active muscular engagement in the arms and connects to A's center of balance. 3)B utilizes intent to "imagine"/"will" to direct the ground path into A's backgate/weakpoints etc to off balance A and take center.

                            What's really going on is that, in step 2, your vectors(directions of your push) are exactly off balancing (i.e. you're both occupying the center line -- it's as if the tips of your shinai are touching and you're pushing with exactly the same force, though through different means). In step 3, you change the direction of your force vector slightly, so that your vector is pressing slightly to the side of his vector. This gives you an advantage, whether you simply want to let him push himself away, or attack.

                            The above is exactly what I am working on in my own kendo. Its one of the skills I am working on in BJJ, karate.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Masahiro View Post
                              Excellent supplemental material Josh, where the hell did you dig that up from? unless you have the article itself, hmmm. i am jealous.
                              I have "Heiho Kadensho" in the original Japanese.

                              I'd like to address your points above, but it would require time to explain the context of the passage in Heiho Kadensho, and to do some translation on the fly. I'm going to be out of town over the weekend, so I'll try to reply sometime next week!

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