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  • #31
    Originally posted by Kaoru View Post
    I think ji-geiko is like the icing on the cake, rather than the essence of it, because that's when, as you said, we get to try out the waza we have learned, and to see what works and doesn't.
    Actually, I consider it to be the cake. Kihon and waza are the ingredients, if we have to continue this food-analogy

    I do. Being put in bogu too soon only hurts the beginner. I've had first hand experience with that. The kumdo McDojo I went to in my home town for 5 1/2 months before I started kendo put me in bogu on the first day. I didn't understand that this was not a good thing until I went to my first real kendo practice. It was like the light bulb went on once I was removed from bogu. Kihon should have been taught without it.(As if they actually taught that properly.) Having bogu on, changes everything you do. That's why having solid kihon is a must. Funny how I ended up learning that backwards. It wasn't fair. I felt cheated. I spent ages cleaning up very bad habits and plain wrong technique. I know
    this is the extreme end of it, and real dojos aren't like that, but putting a beginner in bogu very soon would be hard for them, I think.
    I said "as soon as possible", not "as soon as you start". Our beginners have been using bogu for three weeks now, and they started in the middle of January (so 5-6 weeks of training I guess). Only do, tare and kote. No men, and it is only on one class out of two every week. It works really well for us.
    Having bogu on does change most things we do, yes, that's why I feel it works well by putting the bogu on gradually and still do only basics. That way they get used to moving around in bogu and hopefully the shock will be smaller.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Aries View Post
      I was all anxious to get the okay for bogu and then i just got the okay to go buy the stuff last week, but man.... 1)its expensive.
      You hit on my pet peave
      I just don't get it! Bogu is protective equipment! People are going to hit you with a stick and you are going to let yourself get hit for hours at a time. An adequate bogu with accessories will put you back $1000 bucks or less. Squash, tenis, golf. skiing and even bicycling will set you back much more.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Aries View Post
        1)its expensive
        You must not have played much equipment-intensive sports before. Thanks to internet-based competition, we enjoy pretty reasonable prices these days. You can get a perfectly functional set for under $400 delivered to your door. That's certainly in the ballpark of getting basic gear for hockey or skiing. The prices we pay for instruction should be taken into account, too. Based on the occasional polls taken here, I estimate most of us are paying only 1/3 of what they'd pay at a commercial martial arts studio. The difference would cover your equipment costs in well under a year.

        Really, I'm starting to get sick of the whining. In other activities, people just buck up and pay what's required. Take my daughter's irish dancing, for example. $200 for hard shoes every year? OK. $1500 for a competition dress? How soon can we have it? And so on...

        OK, maybe we do whine about the dress costs a little. But you get my point.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
          Really, I'm starting to get sick of the whining. In other activities, people just buck up and pay what's required. Take my daughter's irish dancing, for example. $200 for hard shoes every year? OK. $1500 for a competition dress? How soon can we have it? And so on...OK, maybe we do whine about the dress costs a little. But you get my point.
          You forgot to include the cost of the trips to competition, in addition to the framing and other re-decorating supplies you will need to make room for all of her ribbons and awards

          Dated an irish dancer a while back, walls and walls of placques, ribbons and trophies... took over her parents house.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
            Really, I'm starting to get sick of the whining. In other activities, people just buck up and pay what's required.

            OK, maybe we do whine about the dress costs a little. But you get my point.
            Sorry for whining,everyone's situation is differnt, though I'll make a note to try not to mention such whining in the future. I have paid for expensive equipment before ..for my wetsuit and surfboard, these are things i know I couldn't skimp on since my life depends on them out in the water, but it doesn't mean it was easy.

            As for bogu...
            I see a lot of maruchan ramen and cheap canned foods for the months to come. YAY~! -_-

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by h2o View Post
              Actually, I consider it to be the cake. Kihon and waza are the ingredients, if we have to continue this food-analogy
              Oh. I hadn't thought of it that way. That makes
              perfect sense. But then, what's the icing?? Cake always has icing...

              I said "as soon as possible", not "as soon as you start".
              I know. That's why I said "very soon." Sorry I
              wasn't clear. I did say mine was an extreme example... I'll try to write
              better.

              Our beginners have been using bogu for three weeks now, and they started in the middle of January (so 5-6 weeks of training I guess). Only do, tare and kote. No men, and it is only on one class out of two every week. It works really well for us.
              See, to me, that's very soon. But you say they do non-bogu classes too, so that's cool. It just seems to me, that they, after only 5-6 weeks, would just be realising how kikentai works, and will have just really started to work on fumikomi and the rest of the footwork and getting it all together, along with tenouchi and trying to be consistant. Wouldn't adding bogu so early just give too much to think about? Hard to tell... In our dojo, they usually get it after about 3 months if not more, depending on the person. I'm not sure, but I think sensei has them add pieces over time, too. I like how you guys have them do non-bogu
              classes as well. We don't do that. It's a good idea.

              Having bogu on does change most things we do, yes, that's why I feel it works well by putting the bogu on gradually and still do only basics. That way they get used to moving around in bogu and hopefully the shock will be smaller.
              So, do you start with just tare and then, the next week add doh, and then after that, kote, or what? So, I take it that it's a little while before they do ji-geiko then?
              Your system sounds interesting. Adding pieces makes a lot of sense to me!

              Kaoru

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Kaoru View Post
                Oh. I hadn't thought of it that way. That makes
                perfect sense. But then, what's the icing?? Cake always has icing...
                I dunno, kata maybe?

                So, do you start with just tare and then, the next week add doh, and then after that, kote, or what? So, I take it that it's a little while before they do ji-geiko then?
                Your system sounds interesting. Adding pieces makes a lot of sense to me!
                This year we actually threw everything except men on them for the first in-bogu class. The last two years we have done it more gradually. I think that worked a bit better than this years strategy.
                And no, ji-geiko is quite a few weeks into the future. If I am nice and tenouchi looks good enough they will start hitting each others bogu (kote or do, haven't decided) today.
                The main reason we had for putting pieces on one by one is that it takes so darned long time if they are to work out how to get in to all of the equipment. The second reason is that it serves as a motivation for people to continue practice. A teaser or whatever you want to call it

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                • #38
                  As the bogu guide says you get whay you pay for but I believe there is always no harm in goign the budget route. you may well get a bogu that lasts half the time of one that is twice as expensive, but that seems equal value to me.

                  The point being those that are starting out may well be better off going the cheap route in the early days. Then in a couple of years time when they want/need something better they can make a more educated decision and possibly be in a better financial position also.

                  I still think this $299 bogu from eguchi looks decent [certainly better than mine]
                  http://www.eguchi.net/c-1070.html
                  I think far more bogu reviews would be nice.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by dwez View Post
                    As the bogu guide says you get whay you pay for but I believe there is always no harm in goign the budget route. you may well get a bogu that lasts half the time of one that is twice as expensive, but that seems equal value to me.
                    That would be true if durability was the only difference. Better bogu are more comfortable and protect better (unless youi are talking about expensive paperweight competition stuff). Buying two cheap bogu is not the same as buying a good bogu that last the same amount of time.

                    Originally posted by dwez View Post
                    The point being those that are starting out may well be better off going the cheap route in the early days. Then in a couple of years time when they want/need something better they can make a more educated decision and possibly be in a better financial position also.
                    An other alternative would be to start with a good sturdy bogu and ramp up to more specialized equiment as it wears out. That way you can have a competition set and an everyday training set.

                    I think the real challenge is the newbie that quit just after buying bogu. Would you buy a used one year old $300 bogu? How much would you pay for it? We regularly re-buy good bogus at over 70% of purchase price from former members even after a year of use. You can easily re-sell a $600 bogu, I don't think the same is true of the $300 version.

                    Originally posted by dwez View Post
                    I still think this $299 bogu from eguchi looks decent [certainly better than mine]
                    http://www.eguchi.net/c-1070.html
                    I think far more bogu reviews would be nice.
                    Totally agree!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Well my experience is limited to the one bogu I bought [or I should say was bought by my dojo for me] before the internet and the veritable smorgasbord of variety that has been made to every kendo customer worldwide with online access. Mine was bought as cheap as possible and I think there maybe a lack of support for those intimidated by the cost.

                      Granted a better bogu will most likely be more comfortable - though I imagine you could find a cheap comfortable bogu if you got to go to a vendor directly evern at a cheap price. Durability is most likely better also.

                      As has been said before you get what you pay for but we all know a $600 bogu doesn't make you a $600 kendoka. If you haven't got the dosh but the desire than I say get what you can. Upgrading along the way is a very sensible option.

                      As to reselling value well I can't really comment. I would buy a used $300 bogu though, if I had the money, more for magpie tendencies than common sense.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by dwez View Post
                        As has been said before you get what you pay for but we all know a $600 bogu doesn't make you a $600 kendoka. If you haven't got the dosh but the desire than I say get what you can. Upgrading along the way is a very sensible option.
                        Totally agree. Good equipment does not make for good kendo, however bad equipment might hinder your progress.

                        In my opinion in the last couple of years, with the globalization of suppliers (Pakistany bogu?) and the advent of "how low can you go bogu" some lower end bogu just does not protect enough!
                        In Japan, they have an equipment bogu manufacturers standards board which sets minimum protection standards. The those minimum standards are not applied in other countries.
                        In addition, Japanese newbies who try to cut down trees with their shinais are likely under 10 years old. The chances of getting hurt are a lot less than when you are faced with a new bogu who weights 240 lbs!

                        I have unfortunately met people who have had wrists broken, knuckles smashed, and/or concussions, from inadequate equipment. A few extra bucks for that first set just makes sense to me. As stated in the equipment sticky, for around 500U$ you can get something decent, why take a chance on low balling it. BTW that is less than a of Starbucks capuccinos (I switched to tea).

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by mark View Post
                          I have unfortunately met people who have had wrists broken, knuckles smashed, and/or concussions, from inadequate equipment. A few extra bucks for that first set just makes sense to me. As stated in the equipment sticky, for around 500U$ you can get something decent, why take a chance on low balling it. BTW that is less than a of Starbucks capuccinos (I switched to tea).
                          Well that is a jolly good reason to go the extra mile if one can. Much more experience than I've come across. I go for the tea too [but at Costa's coffee, and it does!] at least you get two big cups and it's much cheaper n'all!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            thanks guys, this helps a bit even after reading the pages and pages of information on the equipment page.

                            so if I may as an opinion... at the moment I'm looking at a $375 set 5mm, or a $500 3 mm. from bogubag. for that price differnce should I go with the latter?

                            I should be able the cover the cost difference if I beg my manager for some overtime during spring break.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Our Dojo likes students to wear hakama after first 5-6 weeks. The early weeks are better in pants so Sensei can easily see and correct footwork, but after that fitting in with the Dojo also bcomes important.

                              Bogu - Our Dojo custom is that you should be thinking about it after 6 months attendance. After 6 months you should be deciding whether kendo is right for you, or not. If you are going to continue, spend the money and get the correct gear.

                              Iai is a little different, everyone is encouraged to get an iaito as soon as possible. Bokuto just does not work very well. Students who ask about a Bokken saya are told to put the money toward a proper Iaito.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by h2o View Post
                                I dunno, kata maybe?
                                Oh. Of course! I forgot about the kata. Yeah. That would be the icing. I love kata!

                                This year we actually threw everything except men on them for the first in-bogu class. The last two years we have done it more gradually. I think that worked a bit better than this years strategy.
                                And no, ji-geiko is quite a few weeks into the future.
                                I see. That makes sense to do ji-geiko later. They have to get used to cutting all over again first, I guess.

                                If I am nice and tenouchi looks good enough they will start hitting each others bogu (kote or do, haven't decided) today.
                                So, what happened? Were you nice? Which did you choose?

                                The main reason we had for putting pieces on one by one is that it takes so darned long time if they are to work out how to get in to all of the equipment. The second reason is that it serves as a motivation for people to continue practice. A teaser or whatever you want to call it
                                Oh yeah... Both are valid reasons! The first one, that's a very good reason to do them one by one. I know that when I have to re-learn how to put on bogu right for once, I hope it's gradually! It'll take me forever otherwise! The last reason, I never had even thought of. You learn something new(Even it's mundane!)
                                everyday!

                                Kaoru

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