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  • Quick shimpan question...

    Hi everyone, we did a spot of referee-ing practice the other day and something came up that i forgot to ask about.

    Picture the scene: a good men was struck by the guy in red so I raise my red flag up at 45 degrees and my other two colleagues do the same; clear cut point.

    But, like all good kenshi, they didn't pay attention to the flags and keep battling on...

    Do i then raise both flags up vertically and call "Yame" until they stop, put then back down by my side then re-raise the red flag up calling "men ari"?
    or
    do i just keep the flag there and yell yame until they stop then followed by a "men ari"?

    Both followed with a dropping of the flag down to the side accompanied with a "nihonme/shobu ari"

    thanks people

    Shimpan experience is really good fun... bloody tough stuff like but good fun, you get to watch shi ai right up close and be as critical as you like

  • #2
    As shushin, when you recognise the point has been decided you should call out "men-ari" right away. You can't expect the fighters to check all the flags. If they don't hear you, call out "yame". Keep your flag up until you give the command to start the next point or declare the match won.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ahhh, so... Once you see another flag raised (same colour) "men ari" is called straight away, then keep it there, "Yame" if they keep fighting but then no additional "men ari" just straight to "nihome / shobu ari"

      Thanks Neil!

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      • #4
        What he said:

        But better to pre-empt by shouting louder

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        • #5
          Wait until all 3 shimpan have signalled one way or the other, then call "men ari" and wait until they return to centre. Call "yame" if necessary to get them to centre. Then call "nihonme", "shobu" or "shobu-ari" for 2nd point, 3rd point or match won respectively, dropping the flag simultaneously.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think that was where we kept screwing up: not everyone would make a signal so rather than signal that you didn't see the point or that you didn't think it was a point a lot of the time people just stood there not knowing what to do!

            Thanks again neil.. and bobdonny too.

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes, you should drill into people that they need to respond, one way or the other. Having said that, if two flags went up and the third judge didn't respond, I'd wait some short amount of time to give him the chance and then call the point. Maybe some more experienced shimpan than me can chime in here - do you call gogi at that point and give him some instruction?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
                Yes, you should drill into people that they need to respond, one way or the other. Having said that, if two flags went up and the third judge didn't respond, I'd wait some short amount of time to give him the chance and then call the point. Maybe some more experienced shimpan than me can chime in here - do you call gogi at that point and give him some instruction?
                2 flags is enough, so no need to call gogi. Tell him off afterwards for not signalling, as he *should* signal one way or the other.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
                  do you call gogi at that point and give him some instruction?
                  I think shushin should do that.
                  if Tagawa-sensei is head of court, he will call a gogi and get it straightened out. (I really learned a lot from him in Cleveland)

                  If I'm shushin and two of us raise flags, I assume the third is about to raise his flag [assuming he's waiting just a little longer to decide on zanshin, I guess]... if he doesn't think it's a point, he needs to wave it off immediately. If he didn't see it at all, I think the rulebook says he's supposed to cross his flags (pointing down.. not over his head, like hikiwake). But he doesn't just need to stand there and do nothing.

                  If fukushin stands there and does nothing, I think (as shushin) I would go ahead and call the point, then call gogi to tell him 'don't just sit there', and then move on to nihonmen/shobu/shobari....

                  The answer to the original question has already been given.
                  If everybody is raising a flag and they keep going (which is very, very common), shushin just needs to shout louder MEN-ARI, KOTE-ARI, whatever.
                  If need be, YAME! KOTE-ARI! ... and move on.

                  More important than that, though, is when only one shimpan raises his flag and the other two don't.... that guy needs to be VERY quick to see the others wave it off and then IMMEDIATELY lower the flag.
                  I try to be very careful about that myself (especially as shushin)..... nothing sucks more than keeping your flag up there a little too long and then one player sees only you, thinks a point has been called, breaks off the fight, and then instantly gets drilled by the other guy.

                  True, he should have kept his wits about him, but it's a horrible feeling -- as a shimpan -- to realize that you certainly played a role in that.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JSchmidt View Post
                    2 flags is enough, so no need to call gogi. Tell him off afterwards for not signalling, as he *should* signal one way or the other.
                    I agree that one could certainly handle it that way, too.... but i'd rather not play a guessing game with the guy throughout a whole match... especially if it goes long into encho.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tango View Post
                      nothing sucks more than keeping your flag up there a little too long and then one player sees only you, thinks a point has been called, breaks off the fight, and then instantly gets drilled by the other guy.

                      True, he should have kept his wits about him, but it's a horrible feeling -- as a shimpan -- to realize that you certainly played a role in that.
                      Really, nothing sucks more than that? Personally, I think not leaving my beer in the fridge long enough before drinking it sucks more than that. If the senshu stops fighting because he saw a flag, he deserves to get drilled and I won't worry about it at all. Hopefully it's a lesson he'll take to heart.

                      As far as gogi in that situation goes, that's what I'd do but then I'm almost always doing this at some seminar or other where part of the point of the tournament is to give shimpan some experience. Actually, in those cases I won't call gogi, I'll just say out loud - "you have to respond to every flag". Which of course I wouldn't do in a regular tournament setting.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JSchmidt View Post
                        2 flags is enough, so no need to call gogi. Tell him off afterwards for not signalling, as he *should* signal one way or the other.
                        Actually I was at a shimpan seminar this weekend and we were specifically told to call gogi if one of the judges didn't signal, even if it was irrelevant to the point.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JSchmidt View Post
                          2 flags is enough, so no need to call gogi. Tell him off afterwards for not signalling, as he *should* signal one way or the other.
                          Hmm, who are you (me , anyone) to be telling someone off ?

                          You are right of course in that shimpan SHOULD make a signal - in a seminar situation its might be ok to be direct - otherwise its up to shimpan to realise they should act

                          in the post match rei between shimpan you might TACTFULLY remind someone that they need to signal something

                          its not good form to be stroppy about it though !

                          just my twop'nce worth


                          cheers

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                          • #14
                            If I was the shushin in the situation above, I would indeed call gogi (only shushin can after all) to see why one of the fukushin was not issuing a vote of Yukodatotsu or No_Point or Didn't_See (although the last one is to be avoided). The gogi meeting is suppose to be used to insure alignment between all three judges. That is why all of their flags should agree after a gogi.

                            The shushin should use the gogi to let the 'sleeping' fukushin know that he is required to vote (indicate a decision) every time one of the other two flags signals something.

                            If the shushin did not do this then the court shinpan-shunin should find an opportunity to do so at the next break between matches.

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                            • #15
                              I love this forum; so good that a newb like me can learn things like this from you senior folks!

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