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  • No kashiwade allowed??

    Hello,
    In the dojo I go to there is a kamidana. When ever I was there I did kashiwade (2x clap 2x bow clap) ether before or after class (as not to disrupt class or to offent others religious beleaf). Sensei asked me to write for homework what it was and why do it. In responce he said that:

    -"It is a formal opening/closing of class"
    -"It is called Reishiki" not kashiwade
    -"[...]It is a formal act, and it is also a privilage reserved for the teacher or seinor-most student present. To do this without being requested to do so by the teacher would br extreamly rude and presumptious of any kyu rank student. It would also be constructed to be an actual insult to the teacher or the seinor students. Therefore, no one should be doing this as a personal ceremony, or as he or she enters or leavs the Dojo; only by the teacher or the student as designated by the teacher"

    I thought that this was kind of odd. he also said in his responce "often done with wooden clappers", I have never heard of this?

    Are I wrong about this?
    Could someone please clear this up for me???

    I also looked up Reishiki and it says that it just is etiquette.

    Sources:
    http://www.innerstairway.com/reishik...hikitopics.htm
    http://translate.google.com/translat...3Doff%26sa%3DG
    http://kenjutsukai.tripod.com/KOMnew/reishiki.htm

  • #2
    Not sure about using a tripod.com page as a good source of information but that page did seem pretty credible. But, back to the topic at hand. The word reishiki can be used for several different types of etiquette ranging from what to do when visiting a shrine, to entering and leaving a home, to paying respect to one's elders. I think what your sensei is talking about is the formal opening and closing of practice, which is indeed led by either the sensei or the senior student. I assume that before and after class your sensei leads you in saying the following:

    Sensei: "Shomen ni rei"
    (everyone bows)

    Sensei: "Sensei ni rei"

    (everyone bows)
    Everyone: "Onegaishimasu"

    Sensei: "Otegaini rei"

    (everyone bows)
    Everyone: "Onegaishimasu"

    Is this what you guys do? If so, then this is standard opening and closing protocol's for kendo practice. To have a lower ranked student lead this on their own without being asked is very rude and should never be done. It is ALWAYS led by either the sensei or by the senior student at the sensei's request.

    The use of the clappers you mentioned is part of a very old tradition. If you watch professional sumo matches in Japan, they have those and you hear them very clearly through the crowd. Their original use included cutting through the chatter and noise of an audience to let them know that something was about to begin. I suppose that some dojo's still use them but I haven't seen it myself (at least for kendo anyway).

    Comment


    • #3
      Hmmmm.... I just read on a site that 2 claps shows that class is opening. But the thing is that that is not kashiwade. He is confusing the two and it's not recognizing the difference.

      Comment


      • #4
        One little thing about the way of pray to "kamidana"

        It is "2 bow, 2 clap, one bow".
        Sorry if you just miss typed that.

        Comment


        • #5
          Dojo Culture

          Originally posted by Charuzu
          Hello,
          In the dojo I go to there is a kamidana. When ever I was there I did kashiwade (2x clap 2x bow clap) ether before or after class (as not to disrupt class or to offent others religious beleaf). Sensei asked me to write for homework what it was and why do it. In responce he said that:

          -"It is a formal opening/closing of class"
          -"It is called Reishiki" not kashiwade
          -"[...]It is a formal act, and it is also a privilage reserved for the teacher or seinor-most student present. To do this without being requested to do so by the teacher would br extreamly rude and presumptious of any kyu rank student. It would also be constructed to be an actual insult to the teacher or the seinor students. Therefore, no one should be doing this as a personal ceremony, or as he or she enters or leavs the Dojo; only by the teacher or the student as designated by the teacher"

          I thought that this was kind of odd. he also said in his responce "often done with wooden clappers", I have never heard of this?

          Are I wrong about this?
          Could someone please clear this up for me???

          I also looked up Reishiki and it says that it just is etiquette.

          Sources:
          http://www.innerstairway.com/reishik...hikitopics.htm
          http://translate.google.com/translat...3Doff%26sa%3DG
          http://kenjutsukai.tripod.com/KOMnew/reishiki.htm
          In terms of Japanese culture, you are wrong.

          Doing something that is not part of the "dojo culture" is to set yourself apart from the group. This is extremely poor form, especially if you have low-ranking status.

          For example, in my former Aikido Dojo we had one instructor who used this Shinto-style format to begin and end class. We followed his lead when in his class. Other instructors used a more conventional format (see ShinKenshi's initial response). We followed their lead when in their classes. We had a Dojo manual that outlined Reishiki - that was the default in all cases.

          Observe your Sempai, and follow their example (especially if there is no Dojo manual). When in doubt, ask one.

          HTH,

          Comment


          • #6
            k (=^o^=)

            also sorry 'bout the typo. I was kinda sleepy when typing this,

            Comment


            • #7
              The only source for the etiquette you should be using is your sensei. Don't believe everything you read on the internet!!

              The tripod site seems to be the etiquette for some American 'kenjutsu' style, legitimate or not I don't know but I doubt it, but the positioning of the sword before the bow, at a ready to draw position is strange, the bow itself you see a lot in samurai movies, but in most situations is actually rude to whoever you are bowing to. As for the others, anything calling itself 'Zen Judo' should be given a wide berth from the start, as far as I'm concerned.

              You could buy our kata book, which goes into etiquette in detail, by a well-respected member of the All Japan Kendo Fed.'s technical board, certainly a better bet than some random net page. :-)

              You may be trying to impress your sensei by doing what you think is right, but its actually very arrogant of you to think you and some info from a dodgy web site know better than he does. The way to impress him is to discuss this sort of thing before you go and possibly make a fool of yourself. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

              I'm sure you don't mean to appear arrogant, but that's the way most people would see it. Having said that, his response by way of getting you to write about it shows that he doesn't take it in this way. His response to you also sounds very thought out, so if I was you I'd listen to what he says rather than further doubting him by saying 'I just read on a site and...'

              There are many ways of etiquette in Japanese culture. I don't mean to come down on you, but at 15, why should you know better than him, especially just from reading a few web pages?

              Comment


              • #8
                Just echoing what R A Sonsnowski and Hamish have said. Follow your sensei/sempai's lead. They're the one's who are leading practice and since they are of higher rank than you are, it's pretty much their way or the highway. Part of Japanese culture is to not go against the grain and follow the crowd. This concept of being a part of the group is one of the core social aspects of Japanese culture. To set yourself as someone outside of the group by doing your own thing is extremely rude and arrogant. I don't mean to come down on you or sound harsh, but that really is how your sensei and sempai will see this. I remember my first time in another dojo and during the ride down with my sensei, he told me about the differences between our dojo and theirs and told me what they usually do and to just follow their lead. It really wasn't that different but different enough that I had to pay attention very carefully to what I was doing. In short, don't go off and do your own thing just because it's what you've been doing but instead, do what the current sensei/sempai does without question.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well on Kashiwade I have talked to Rev. Barrish. He also agrees with me that sensei is probally confused on something.
                  I won't do it without sensei's permission now, but that doesn't mean that I'll voice my oppion.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Charuzu
                    but that doesn't mean that I'll voice my oppion.
                    Oops... another typo.... I meant to say "But that doesn't mean that I won't voice my oppion.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You might want to rethink that. Your best option as a new student is to just do what your sensei says, and keep your opinions to yourself.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ShinKenshi
                        Not sure about using a tripod.com page as a good source of information but that page did seem pretty credible. But, back to the topic at hand. The word reishiki can be used for several different types of etiquette ranging from what to do when visiting a shrine, to entering and leaving a home, to paying respect to one's elders. I think what your sensei is talking about is the formal opening and closing of practice, which is indeed led by either the sensei or the senior student. I assume that before and after class your sensei leads you in saying the following:

                        Sensei: "Shomen ni rei"
                        (everyone bows)

                        Sensei: "Sensei ni rei"

                        (everyone bows)
                        Everyone: "Onegaishimasu"

                        Sensei: "Otegaini rei"

                        (everyone bows)
                        Everyone: "Onegaishimasu"

                        Is this what you guys do? If so, then this is standard opening and closing protocol's for kendo practice. To have a lower ranked student lead this on their own without being asked is very rude and should never be done. It is ALWAYS led by either the sensei or by the senior student at the sensei's request.

                        The use of the clappers you mentioned is part of a very old tradition. If you watch professional sumo matches in Japan, they have those and you hear them very clearly through the crowd. Their original use included cutting through the chatter and noise of an audience to let them know that something was about to begin. I suppose that some dojo's still use them but I haven't seen it myself (at least for kendo anyway).
                        Also, ShinKenshi. I am not trying to lead a opening or closing. I am just giving the kamidana the respect it deserves (In my oppion). Kashiwade while it might be used in a opening it is not used in the dojo. What sensei sayed was that it could be used as part as an oppening thus I shouldn't do it becuse it is rude. However, talking with other shintoists on yahoo groups like shinto and tsubakiko it is agreed that something is being confused and that students should be able to pay respects to the kami at the Kamidana.

                        Also, could you please show me the resources for the wooden-clappers?

                        PS - Sorry If I am being anal, but I need to be %100 shure to go foward with something with no regrets. I also pride the fact that I never really lie. And becuse of that I willingly get smaked in the face. (Well that would be my parents, lol)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Charuzu
                          PS - Sorry If I am being anal, but I need to be %100 sure to go foward with something with no regrets. I also pride the fact that I never really lie. And becuse of that I willingly get smacked in the face.
                          Perhaps you should read Neil's suggestion one more time?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Charuzu
                            Also, ShinKenshi. I am not trying to lead a opening or closing. I am just giving the kamidana the respect it deserves (In my oppion). Kashiwade while it might be used in a opening it is not used in the dojo. What sensei sayed was that it could be used as part as an oppening thus I shouldn't do it becuse it is rude. However, talking with other shintoists on yahoo groups like shinto and tsubakiko it is agreed that something is being confused and that students should be able to pay respects to the kami at the Kamidana.

                            Also, could you please show me the resources for the wooden-clappers?

                            PS - Sorry If I am being anal, but I need to be %100 shure to go foward with something with no regrets. I also pride the fact that I never really lie. And becuse of that I willingly get smaked in the face. (Well that would be my parents, lol)
                            I understand that you want to pay respect to it but it sounds like your sources are thinking about it outside of a dojo. Within a dojo, you do not do so unless your sensei or sempai (at your sensei's request of course) leads everyone in it. It also sounds like you aren't really talking about it with your sensei and that you're second guessing him. First of all, you're coming off as downright rude and arrogant. It all comes back to the concept of following your sensei without question. Don't take it upon yourself to pay respects to the kamidana. Again, really TALK to your sensei about it, don't go off and do your own thing or assume that they are wrong and you are right. Have an actual conversation and try to really understand where your sensei is coming from and why they don't do this. By the way, are you a practicing Shintoist? If not, think carefully about why you're doing this.

                            As for the clappers, I haven't found any links at this time but I'll start looking and I'll let you know. What I can tell you is that they are used when opening and closing a day of sumo matches and for opening a scene in a kabuki or noh drama.

                            Again, I'm not trying to berate you or anything but it really sounds like you're scoffing at what your sensei is saying and that you immediately assume that you are correct. This makes you appear to be very arrogant and I'm sure you don't intend to present yourself as such. So please, take the time and have a worth while conversation with your sensei about this and really come to understand both sides of the issue.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              >It also sounds like you aren't really talking about it with your sensei and that you're second guessing him. First of all, you're coming off as downright rude and arrogant. It all comes back to the concept of following your sensei without question. Don't take it upon yourself to pay respects to the kamidana. Again, really TALK to your sensei about it, don't go off and do your own thing or assume that they are wrong and you are right. Have an actual conversation and try to really understand where your sensei is coming from and why they don't do this.

                              He refuses to talk about it.

                              > By the way, are you a practicing Shintoist? If not, think carefully about why you're doing this.

                              Yes, I am. Thought I am quite new.

                              >As for the clappers, I haven't found any links at this time but I'll start looking and I'll let you know. What I can tell you is that they are used when opening and closing a day of sumo matches and for opening a scene in a kabuki or noh drama.

                              Thanks for the info ^o^

                              >Again, I'm not trying to berate you or anything but it really sounds like you're scoffing at what your sensei is saying and that you immediately assume that you are correct.

                              Went to find the oppion of Rev. Barrish of the Tsubaki grand shrine and other Shintoists and they agree with me.

                              >This makes you appear to be very arrogant and I'm sure you don't intend to present yourself as such. So please, take the time and have a worth while conversation with your sensei about this and really come to understand both sides of the issue.

                              Thats why I'm posting this... so I can get informed oppions and compile them into an creditabe augurement. So in short I am "Fact finding"

                              Comment

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