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  • #16
    A shinpan is also required to make a judgement on his ability to see what happened; he must disqualify himself from making a judgement if he did not have adequate perspective. That seems to support philosophy #2.

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    • #17
      Great topic, Theodore (what has happened to the intellectual ability of this forum while I was away?). I tend to lean towards what Ben was saying. The sheer level of authority one must display as shinpan makes #3 a pretty attractive mental stance. But, there are three judges, so can the authoritativeness is tempered by the democratic process in the shiai-jo.

      BTW, I am bookmarking your blog.

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      • #18
        I would disagree, Charlie. #2 is sufficient, as it states: "I call them as I see 'em." That says it all, you do the best you can to call them. But you must call them as you see them, not as the other judges see them. That's why there are 3 judges. If attitude #3 was correct, you wouldn't need 3. You can't always be right but hopefully the three of you can be right together most of the time. Now if some judges are not confident in their ability to call them and instead rely on the other judges to call them, pretty soon it gets down to only 2 judges or maybe 1 and then we're in trouble.

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        • #19
          Well, I would agree there, Neil. I'm so new to shinpan that one of the things most impressed upon me at this stage is to be more decisive. Thus my leaning toward #3.

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          • #20
            Ah, shucks........

            Originally posted by Charlie
            Great topic, Theodore (what has happened to the intellectual ability of this forum while I was away?). I tend to lean towards what Ben was saying. The sheer level of authority one must display as shinpan makes #3 a pretty attractive mental stance. But, there are three judges, so can the authoritativeness is tempered by the democratic process in the shiai-jo.

            BTW, I am bookmarking your blog.
            Thanks for your kind words.......I'm not long in kendo but I am a rated western fencing referee and have had a lot of experience (including regional section championships) calling "balls and strikes." The whole subject of judging is harder than anyone who has never stood up and made split-second, on the spot decisions that can have a profound impact on folks can uderstand.

            Here's the main lesson I've learned: when you reward a point to a fencer he has no real gratitude since he knew he had it all along, however, the one against whom the point is taken has nothing but irritation since, if the action was at all close, he felt he got screwed.

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            • #21
              Surely the differences in fencing and kendo cultures account for these attitudes, though?

              Are there three refs in fencing, as in kendo?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Charlie
                Surely the differences in fencing and kendo cultures account for these attitudes, though?

                Are there three refs in fencing, as in kendo?
                There's a hell of a lot less attitude in kendo then fencing, that's for sure. Probably since not as much is at stake (no chance to make the Olympic team, etc.). If the judging is "dry" (i.e., without the electric machine) then there are 4 judges, two watching each fencer, and one referee. If the match is electric, then there is just one referee. Here is a precis of history of fencing.
                Last edited by Theodore; 21st September 2005, 06:53 AM. Reason: Add hyperlink

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Theodore
                  There's a hell of a lot less attitude in kendo then fencing, that's for sure. Probably since not as much is at stake (no chance to make the Olympic team, etc.).
                  Probably since if you show any attitude, the shimpan will toss your ass out of the shiai-jo. And your team with you, if it's bad enough. Fencing would do well to adapt similar rules.

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                  • #24
                    I agree!!!

                    Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
                    Probably since if you show any attitude, the shimpan will toss your ass out of the shiai-jo. And your team with you, if it's bad enough. Fencing would do well to adapt similar rules.
                    I totally agree. My last formal ref assignment I black-carded the top NW US female sabreur. She didn't like a call and tossed her mask way up in the air. As it went up I said, "If it comes down, you're out of here." Lots of B.S. later, complaints to the bout committee, etc., she was gone. Maestro Okawa (with whom I trained) would never let any of his fencers get away with that sort of crap.

                    Also threw out half of one of the Utah teams in the stands. One of their fencers was bouting with someone with a bad ankle, and they started chanting "Sweep the leg." They thought it was funny until I black carded everyone who was chanting.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
                      Probably since if you show any attitude, the shimpan will toss your ass out of the shiai-jo. And your team with you, if it's bad enough. Fencing would do well to adapt similar rules.
                      Every sport should take a look at kendo - how it is judged and how competitors behave.

                      Especially high profile sports such as football (in its many forms).
                      The players have no respect for the referees and umpires and treat them with contempt.
                      Umpires are abused and chased around the playing pitch by Neanderthals wanting their own way. Punch ups between that players is a regular event in this country. In fact, if you dont follow football in this country, bad behavior in football seems to be all that is reported in the media. I wouldnt want my children to idolize men who pretend to be professional athletes when they are just overpaid thugs.
                      Womens Netball has more honor than the gorilla-like boofheads who run around bashing each other and calling it a ball game. If a netball player accidentally hit another player during a game; it would be over for that players career. Football would be much more entertaining without the violence.

                      There is no honor in sports that dont advocate and promote respect of players and judges by removing players who can't behave like humans.

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                      • #26
                        Yeah, but pro sports is a different kettle of fish - they're marketing a product and like it or lump it, the public seems to like to see bad behaviour. Fights in hockey, stupid end-zone dances in gridiron football, screaming arguments with the ump in baseball... turf it all, I say, but the money speaks otherwise.

                        We had some local fencers show up at our last tournament/seminar and they were astounded at how well-behaved and organized the players were. OTOH a few years ago Canadian national fencing championships were here and I was quite appalled to see what a mess it was - equipment strewn haphazardly everywhere, temper tantrums and flung helmets, pistes scattered seemingly randomly around the room so that there was very little good vantage point for spectators...

                        And you know what? Enforced good behaviour breeds natural good behaviour, in my books. Nobody in kendo is allowed to get too stressed over a bad call or a lost match, and so nobody really does get too stressed. Or if they do, they keep it internal because you just look like a knob otherwise.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Good point.
                          Do you think kendoka be so well behaved if there was money involved?
                          Would there be more stress and would it lead to poor behavior?
                          Or is kendo an intrinsically honorable path?
                          I think it is.
                          I wouldnt train if deplorable behavior at training or shiai was not abhorred.

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                          • #28
                            I think Infinity poses a good question? Would kendokas be a lil more on the rough side if money was involved? Im going to have to say no. Why? Because if you look at College basketball, football, and other sports, where there is no money involved, there is more passion in those sports than in their Pro leuge counterparts (NBA,NFL, ect). For example, if i was a payed kendoka my mind thought could be, "Im allready getting paid, what does it matter if i win or lose." Winning and losing in kendo is very different to winning and losing in many other sports. How do i know? Because b4 i started kendo i played basketball for 15 years. Even though basketball is about pride, you are sharing that pride with 10-12 other players, while if if a kendoka wins or loses, HE is losing and their is noone to blame but himself for his/her mistakes. And even if a kendoka loses, he was most likely taught to take it as a lesson and not a loss. Plus, kendo is an art which instills a lot of good traits in its participants. You just wont see a kendoka flip out and punch someone in the middle of a tournament (not saying that it couldnt happen, just saying its unlikely), because kendokas are taught humility, respect, patience, and good behavior in general.

                            So i dont think money would make kendo any rougher, probably less so.

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                            • #29
                              They did a study on this exact topic.

                              They gave a bunch of kids who loved playing video games 10 dollars an hour to play. They played 1/2 as much.

                              Money + hobby = job

                              job = not fun

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gregory
                                They did a study on this exact topic.

                                They gave a bunch of kids who loved playing video games 10 dollars an hour to play. They played 1/2 as much.

                                Money + hobby = job

                                job = not fun
                                yeah well,
                                no money + no job = no fun

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