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  • Two Short Swords

    Hello all,

    This is my first post on the forum. Hopefully, I'm posting in the right place, if not, please let me know.

    My question has three parts:

    1) What is the name of the sword dance traditionally practiced in Japan? I'm not talking about the sword and fan, but a two sword dance similar to the provided link.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUdkQ...eature=related

    2) Has anyone heard of a style called Kendo Kuroi? I know it sounds like a bad anime name, but I was told it was a branch of Kendo involving two short swords. I'm not talking about Nito Ryu (the long and short sword).

    3) That having been said, does anyone know of a sword style using two short swords (maybe wakizashi) in which warriors would dip the swords in oil before battle and light them on fire to inspire fear?


    Thank you very much for your help.

  • #2
    Any answers

    Any information on any of my 3 questions would be appreciated.

    I've seen the two short sword method... but I can't track down the name of the style.

    Comment


    • #3
      1) What is the name of the sword dance traditionally practiced in Japan?
      Kenbu
      I'm not talking about the sword and fan, but a two sword dance similar to the provided link.
      The provided link is Korean Haidong Gumdo. I know of no Japanese equivalent.
      2) Has anyone heard of a style called Kendo Kuroi?
      No
      3) That having been said, does anyone know of a sword style using two short swords (maybe wakizashi) in which warriors would dip the swords in oil before battle and light them on fire to inspire fear?
      No
      Any information on any of my 3 questions would be appreciated.
      Try not to be too impatient as we're all adults here, and so we work during the day and often can't immediately respond to enquiries. Also, since this is a kendo forum, enquiries regarding things other than kendo, such as yours, can go unanswered for even longer periods.

      Cheers,

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello R.J.
        The use of two short sword is very rare, actually is related to Nito ryu, with the name of Nito Kodachi.
        As far as i know this peculiar style is very rare.
        The few example i know are the following:
        1- Shinkage ryu-This koryu has a kata where a kenshi sitted in seiza draw his short sword and the short sword of an attacker, usig both to defeat him.

        2-Tendo Ryu - This koryu has some kata based on the use of two kodachi.
        This school is specialized in th use of Naginata. Obviously when the enemy comes into close quarters the rely on the use of short weapons, so i think that many other Naginata/Yari ryu will have similar kata. If you want to know more on this subject i think that maybe this is the best area where to search.

        Comment


        • #5
          Another good place to check is the archives at E-budo.com
          This question has been asked before. The above info is correct from what I remember from that thread. Check out www.e-budo.com
          Hope that helps you out.

          Comment


          • #6
            Two swords

            Thank you all for your help! I'll look into the topics you've listed and let you know if I have any further questions.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Raffa View Post
              Hello R.J.
              The use of two short sword is very rare, actually is related to Nito ryu, with the name of Nito Kodachi.
              As far as i know this peculiar style is very rare.
              The few example i know are the following:
              1- Shinkage ryu-This koryu has a kata where a kenshi sitted in seiza draw his short sword and the short sword of an attacker, usig both to defeat him.
              I believe the Yagyu Shingan Ryu (technically a jujutsu-heiho system) uses the same approach.

              Comment


              • #8
                Kenbu

                Did the dance originate from actual battlefield tactics? I know the woman in the link that I posted was doing Korean Haidong Gumdo, but I believe Haidong Gumdo came from Kendo, did it not? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that the now performance style of Kenbu didn't come from an actual combat style.

                Also, I looked into Shinkage Ryu and there appears to be two. One is translated as Divine Shadow and the other as New Shadow. Are there different styles called Shinkage Ryu, or is this just a case of translation word choice? By two styles, I'm not referring to the brach in Edo and in... I forget the other location; one I mean is two different teachings of the same name.

                Just a final confirmation: nobody has ever heard of a fear technique in which warriors would oil their swords and light them on fire?

                Comment


                • #9
                  *branch

                  *What, not one.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that the now performance style of Kenbu didn't come from an actual combat style.
                    I agree that maybe you are wrong. I found the following on Wikipedia:
                    Kenbu draws its origins from the Gekken Kaisha (撃剣会社, lit. 'fencing company') created by Sakakibara Kenkichi (榊原健吉) in 1872. The Gekken Kaisha toured Japan, engaging in 'fencing performances' (撃剣興行, gekken kougyou) which quickly became popular.[1] Many modern schools of kenbu derive from other traditions, but Sakakibara's Gekken Kaisha was the first to explore the form.
                    So while Kenbu may derive from sword traditions, that is not the same as coming from an "actual combat style".

                    Just a final confirmation: nobody has ever heard of a fear technique in which warriors would oil their swords and light them on fire?
                    I have seen something like this at cheesy Hawaiian Luaus. That and Krod Mandoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Kenbu

                      It's my impression that the Araki-ryu iai folks in the US under Robert Corrella also study a separate kenbu tradition. They have a web presence, as I recall. Regardless, it's one example, though as mentioned previously it is late-developing tradition (late 1800s irrc ).

                      John

                      see old thread <http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-15057.html>
                      Last edited by John Seavitt; 20th May 2009, 09:12 AM. Reason: we've done this before ...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by R.J. View Post
                        I believe Haidong Gumdo came from Kendo, did it not?
                        Kinda/sorta. There's some kendo dna in there, but a lot of it is just made up. Many kendoka are less than complimentary about Haidong Gumdo.

                        Historically, I can't see why there would be a legitimate two short sword kata, but I've been wrong about such stuff before and there were certainly many different schools in old Japan. Certainly there's nothing like that in kendo. There isn't any kata where one person wields two weapons at once, although we allow it in competition (one short, one long).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
                          Historically, I can't see why there would be a legitimate two short sword kata, but I've been wrong about such stuff before and there were certainly many different schools in old Japan.
                          Tendo-ryu: two short swords.
                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/7762281...7604860006665/
                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/7762281...7604860006665/
                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/7762281...7604860006665/
                          Can't tell you the nuts and bolts behind it (didn't get that far), but I can tell you they don't dip them in oil and light them on fire.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Historically, I can't see why there would be a legitimate two short sword kata, but I've been wrong about such stuff before and there were certainly many different schools in old Japan.
                            As mentioned in the 4th post, there are a number of koryu schools that have two sword kata. In addition to the few mentioned, to the best of my knowledge, there are kata with two swords in the following non-comprehensive list of Koryu schools*:
                            Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
                            Shingyoto-Ryu Kenjutsu
                            Shinto Muso Ryu
                            Tatsumi Ryu
                            Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu
                            Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Hyoho

                            *none of these employ flaming swords as far as I know.

                            xvikingx,
                            Thanks for the link to the Tendo Ryu pic's. There are a few of us here in the US practicing these and they are pretty interesting.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Setting shinai on fire and having keiko sounds like a great thing for an enbu. Or a farewell keiko. Or a dare.



                              Or a Jackass(C) episode.


                              Those nito kodachi are very cool. I take it they make sense in a Naginata setting then?

                              Comment

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