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  • Yuko datotsu

    How do you define it? What conditions have to be met? Do they all have to be met, or just most of them?

    I think:

    -Obviously, the shinai has to find its target
    -The edge, not the flat of the shinai, must cut
    -The monouchi, the top third of the shinai, must cut
    -It must make a good popping noise, not a dull thud or a tap, which demonstrates tenouchi
    -The cut must be aligned with the feet and the body - ki ken tai ichi
    -Kiai must be demonstrated
    -Good posture is preferred but not necessary - i.e., it is possible to score if the body is too far forward or twisted

    Feedback, please?

  • #2
    Dude, didn't you have to take a written test in order to pass nidan or sandan?

    Comment


    • #3
      No, tango, they made an exception in my case because I was just that good.

      Actually, I failed that test and they are asking me to repeat it and this is cheating.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by The Rules
        Article 16. The valid strike points on the body shall
        be the following:
        a. MEN (head). The forehead and the left and right
        areas above the temple. The forehead is the cushion part
        of the MEN and not the metal screen. However, the screen
        may become a valid strike point if player throws their head back.
        b. KOTE (hand). The area on the forearm covered by the
        round patterned covering. Generally the right forearm,
        the left forearm can also be a valid point during
        CHUDAN-NO-KAMAE (left hand forward holding the sword);
        JODAN-NO KAMAE
        (a KAMAE where the SHINAI is held over the head);
        WAKI-KAMAE (a KAMAE
        where the SHINAI is held downward by the right foot);
        NITO-NO-KAMAE (KAMAE using two SHINAI); AGE-KOTE
        (where the KOTE is held above the pit of the
        stomach, except when executing DATOTSU); and KAMAE
        variations from CHUDAN. The top of the hand is not
        a valid DATOTSU.
        c. DO (torso). The left and right sides of the DO.
        d. TSUKI (throat). The TSUKI-TARE (throat flap on the
        MEN) and the breast section of the DO when JODAN-NO KAMAE
        and NITO-NO-KAMAE are used.

        Article 17. YUKO DATOTSU is defined as the accurate striking
        or thrusting made to DATOTSU spots with the SHINAI at its
        DATOTSU-BU edge with KIAI
        (spirit and positive voice), the right posture, and ZANSHIN
        (mental and physical alertness against the opponents attack;
        positive follow through of attack and strike),
        a. One handed DATOTSU and DATOTSU in retreat, however,
        must be executed after a clear positive strike.
        b. GO-NO-WAZA (DATOTSU countering an opponent's DATOTSU)
        as a counter or parry to TSUBA-ZERIAI (when both opponents
        establish contact with TSUBA) must be clear and precise.

        2. An accurate DATOTSU in the following instances shall be valid:
        a. When a DATOTSU is made immediately after a player
        loses their grip on the SHINAI or drops it.
        b. DATOTSU made simultaneously when the opponent steps
        out of bounds (court).
        c. DATOTSU made simultaneously when the match is
        signaled as ended.
        3. DATOTSU in the following cases will not be considered valid:
        a. AIUCHI (valid DATOTSU made mutually and simultaneously
        by both opponents).
        b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.
        The above is from the 1988 version, but still more or less valid. As always, case by case. Judging mudansha not everything need be perfect. There's some deliberately vague language that allows for the referees to make a judgement call. Some stuff isn't in there, like needing a reason to hit certain cuts especially doh.

        Comment


        • #5
          "...like needing a reason to hit certain cuts especially doh."

          Can you expand? I was just looking at the above myself and was about to post it but you beat me to it. I forgot zanshin on my original list.

          Comment


          • #6
            " DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively."

            I don't understand this one...how you have effective datotsu if it is effectively parried?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Charlie
              "...like needing a reason to hit certain cuts especially doh."

              Can you expand? I was just looking at the above myself and was about to post it but you beat me to it. I forgot zanshin on my original list.
              Like going for doh when the guy didn't raise his arm?

              I know folks who train to hit the bottom edge of the doh...while it goes in, this doesn't really take advantage of the idea of using seme to make the guy get out of kamae for the doh.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DCPan
                " DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively."

                I don't understand this one...how you have effective datotsu if it is effectively parried?
                3. DATOTSU in the following cases will not be considered valid:
                .
                .
                .
                b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paikea
                  3. DATOTSU in the following cases will not be considered valid:
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.
                  LOL, reading is my STRONG point...really

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Charlie
                    "...like needing a reason to hit certain cuts especially doh."

                    Can you expand? I was just looking at the above myself and was about to post it but you beat me to it. I forgot zanshin on my original list.
                    Doh is one cut that people constantly throw in when there is no opening. My sensei has told me not to award it unless I can detect that there was an opening, as opposed to just chucking it in there and hoping it lands.
                    Originally posted by Paikea
                    b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.
                    And there's another gray area thingy - suppose someone blocks your men cut. If he blocks it enough so that it doesn't hit the men-buton, then obviously no point. If he blocks it and it still connects, then it might be a point if you cut through the block strongly enough to get a solid contact. But if you get through and the cut is weak, also no point. Not everything is in the regs.
                    Last edited by Neil Gendzwill; 29th April 2006, 05:07 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DCPan
                      LOL, reading is my STRONG point...really
                      Don't feel bad, I had to read it three times, and I'm still wondering where subsection #1 went...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        These kinds of gray areas and anecdotal examples are why I made the thread, really. I thought what DC thought, by the way, "Well, of course it isn't valid if it is parried?"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Charlie
                          These kinds of gray areas and anecdotal examples are why I made the thread, really. I thought what DC thought, by the way, "Well, of course it isn't valid if it is parried?"
                          Not necessarily. It has to be an "effective" parry. If they do the trick that was mentioned in Miyazaki sensei's book about flattening the strike, the strike could roll over your parry and score. Tall people tend to do that naturally, but for those of us vertically challenged....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
                            And there's another gray area thingy - suppose someone blocks your men cut. If he blocks it enough so that it doesn't hit the men-buton, then obviously no point. If he blocks it and it still connects, then it might be a point if you cut through the block strongly enough to get a solid contact. But if you get through and the cut is weak, also no point. Not everything is in the regs.
                            Every time David doesn't raise his flag for me, he's more than happy to tell me all about why.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm also interested in the extent kenshi must "sell" the point to the shinpan, and at what level. For example, how much kiai is enough kiai? How about posture? How do you feel about letting someone be as horizontal as a spear or as twisted as a corkscrew - still ippon? How big must the swing be?

                              Comment

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