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Pushing Aite on tsuki-dare?

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  • Pushing Aite on tsuki-dare?

    During Keiko, when resetting the distance from tsubazeriai to Issoku, Is it considered bad "etiquette" to gently (or whatever force it takes) push Aite on the tsukidare. Is it something that perhaps should not be done on the "old boys" of Kendo?

  • #2
    I wouldn't do it to my sensei, but I've done it to my mates and in shiai in front of various sensei and never been told not to. I wouldn't do it all the time though. If you're having a tense old pagger with one of your mates then whatever goes.

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    • #3
      Of course, if aite is any good, as soon as you push him, he might just turn you and give you a crack on the bonce (technical term for hiki men).

      Make damn sure that you've got control of centre before "pushing" and then do it by moving your hara - not your arms - otherwise all your pals will be queueing up to be "pushed" by you.

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      • #4
        i really don't like people pushing me on the tsuki dare. i don't mind so much if they push me on the mune. if they do that, i knock their shinai out of the way and try to nail them as best as i can. but i've seen this done number of times.

        pete

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        • #5
          Seperating by pushing with the kensen is a penalty, IIRC.

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          • #6
            I think it is better to try to "negotiate" the step back... Usually I only need to look to my aite with a gentle expression and start to walk backwards. If he also wants to get back to issoku ito no maai he will step back at the same time. If he does not want, he will pressure me, so I know I will have to dispute a hiki waza from tsubazeriai or do some counter attack.

            I don't like tsubazeriai, but I think aite has the right to want to dispute from tsubazeriai if he wants. Pushing with the kensen is like trying to enforce your will. So I think aite has the right to take your shinai off center and strike you if you push him.

            I also don't like that shinai pressure on my shoulder while stepping backwards...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by bianchi View Post
              I think it is better to try to "negotiate" the step back... Usually I only need to look to my aite with a gentle expression and start to walk backwards.
              I would avoid getting used to this kind of "gentleman's agreement." It's a perfect way to get suckered into a surprise hiki waza from your opponent.
              Originally posted by bianchi
              I also don't like that shinai pressure on my shoulder while stepping backwards.
              Good reason not to like it. That's a hansoku.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Halcyon View Post
                I would avoid getting used to this kind of "gentleman's agreement." It's a perfect way to get suckered into a surprise hiki waza from your opponent.
                I know... We should never forget zanshin, even while under this "gentleman's agreement"... You should never give up the center...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
                  Seperating by pushing with the kensen is a penalty, IIRC.
                  Oh I didn't know that, well I guess that about clears up any debate over it's legitimacy.

                  Also the shoulder thing...I didn't realise that was a hansoku, is this a recent thing or has it always been that way? Is it any less rude than pushing tsukidare?

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                  • #10
                    u know Neil, the thing is . ..i've never seen one shinpan to call a hansoku on anyone because of the pushing opponents back on their tsuki-dare, or the shinai on shoulder while parting from tsubazeriai!!!! There probably are rules that prohibit the actions I just mentioned, but they sure dont' do a very good job enforcing it!

                    so, does that mean the "coach" of the team or whoever it is in the "rule book" that they say are allowed to object to the matches, can legitimately complain about it during a match? (just a thought)

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                    • #11
                      Yeah, I know... it's one of those things that is covered in shimpan seminars though. The shinai on the shoulder thing has to be pretty blatant - if there's just a little contact, no problem. But if you use it to throw your opponent to the side to make an opening for hiki-men, then it should be a penalty.

                      I always thought there weren't too many avenues for complaint, but I know at WKC in Glasgow our coaches resolved an issue concerning our women's team when they lined up in error for a match. So any of you more experienced shimpan out there - what is the procedure for a complaint, and can you ever see a change as a result?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Masahiro View Post
                        u know Neil, the thing is . ..i've never seen one shinpan to call a hansoku on anyone because of the pushing opponents back on their tsuki-dare, or the shinai on shoulder while parting from tsubazeriai!!!! There probably are rules that prohibit the actions I just mentioned, but they sure dont' do a very good job enforcing it!

                        so, does that mean the "coach" of the team or whoever it is in the "rule book" that they say are allowed to object to the matches, can legitimately complain about it during a match? (just a thought)
                        I have called it many times. And in my younger days I got called for tsukidashi. I have called people on the shoulder as well.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Curtis View Post
                          I have called it many times. And in my younger days I got called for tsukidashi. I have called people on the shoulder as well.
                          ah, good to know! thank you for the input.

                          i should be mindful of my kendo then if i should ever make it to the northwest.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fudo-Shin View Post
                            Also the shoulder thing...I didn't realise that was a hansoku, is this a recent thing or has it always been that way? Is it any less rude than pushing tsukidare?
                            It's been hansoku for at least about a decade. Anyone else know if it's "always" been that way? As for whether it's ruder than pushing the tsukidare, well, what's the point really of comparing rudeness. You might get away with it once or twice, depending on the judge, but it's still hansoku. Better not to do it.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Halcyon View Post
                              It's been hansoku for at least about a decade. Anyone else know if it's "always" been that way? As for whether it's ruder than pushing the tsukidare, well, what's the point really of comparing rudeness. You might get away with it once or twice, depending on the judge, but it's still hansoku. Better not to do it.
                              When I say "always" I kinda mean kendo as we know it now. ie. post war Kendo. Sorry about the lack of info.

                              Despite being a hansoku when used in Shiai do you think it is "bad ettiquete" when the "Shinai on the Shoulder" (for lack of better name) waza is used during Keiko?...I really never took offence to it. Only just found out it is Hansoku for that matter. What's the big problem with it?...I can understand if they are pushing you laterally or being rough with it, but if they are just "gently" using it as part of their Zanshin then why is it considered to be negative?

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