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Suriage men

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  • #16
    Men-suriage-men is hard -- partly because the motodachi has to be pretty good as well to set up a nice, sharp men-uchi to work with. If the motodachi does one of those big, slow men-uchi, then things can get pretty ugly.

    If it's just a few kyu-level guys mixed in with a lot of higher-ranking guys, I'll generally tell the kyu-level guys to give men-suriage-men a try. Gotta start somewhere, right? But if there's a higher ratio of kyu-level guys, then I'll stick to a menu with more fundamentals, like debana-men, which is something the higher-ranking guys can benefit from as well.

    One way to take a bit of the mystery out of men-suriage-men is to do a few rounds of kote-suriage-men before, in particular, suriage on the omote side. Word of caution: some sensei frown on kote-suriage-men on the omote side because it requires you to move your kensen to the outside, giving up center. But as a pedagogical tool, it works pretty well as a prelude to men-suriage-men because it teaches you some of the basic principles of suriage -- using the shinogi, one motion (rather that a block and then a hit), etc.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Halcyon View Post
      Word of caution: some sensei frown on kote-suriage-men on the omote side because it requires you to move your kensen to the outside, giving up center. But as a pedagogical tool, it works pretty well as a prelude to men-suriage-men because it teaches you some of the basic principles of suriage -- using the shinogi, one motion (rather that a block and then a hit), etc.
      Does anybody ever practice men-suriage-men with suriage from the ura side? We've all seen this kind of suriage happen more or less by 'accident,' but does anybody actively practice their suriage this way?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DigitalDowntown View Post
        Does anybody ever practice men-suriage-men with suriage from the ura side? We've all seen this kind of suriage happen more or less by 'accident,' but does anybody actively practice their suriage this way?
        Yup, we do. We practice kote-suriage-men and men-suriage-men both ways. Personally I like the kote one on the omote side better as it is safer. For men, doing it ura for me requires a bit of a sidestep similar to kata #6 whereas omote I can stay straight.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by tango View Post
          So... Neil .... if you're teaching a room filled exclusively with kyu ranks, how likely are you to have them work on men-suriage-men?
          Zero. It's much more likely that mudansha will see this when there are just one or two of them and everyone else happens to be senior. Another scenario is that I have enough people to divide into two groups, in which case I am able to have both groups doing oji-waza drills at the same time, but just less complicated ones for the newer people. But if the bulk of the group is kyu, then we are more likely to get into more basic advanced stuff, for example "I know you've seen people doing small men before, let me break it down for you" or "you all have trouble finding an opportunity, let me show you kote-men and then we'll turn that into harai-men".

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DigitalDowntown View Post
            Does anybody ever practice men-suriage-men with suriage from the ura side? We've all seen this kind of suriage happen more or less by 'accident,' but does anybody actively practice their suriage this way?
            Sure. You can do men-suriage-men with both the ura and omote side. But you'll need some nimble ashi-sabaki to pull off the ura side men-suriage-men.

            One major advantage of doing suriage on the omote side is that you can switch pretty seamlessly between kote-suriage-men, men-suriage-men or just plain debana-men depending on how deep your opponent attacks and/or how fast they are.

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            • #21
              Slight thread hijack because I'm a little confused. Just want to check I've got the right idea: is omote the left side of MY shinai, and ura the right?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Welshy View Post
                Slight thread hijack because I'm a little confused. Just want to check I've got the right idea: is omote the left side of MY shinai, and ura the right?
                Correct. Omote = outside and ura = reverse.

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                • #23
                  I think most shiai and keiko, you get more success from Men, Kote and Do. Even high rank sensei rarely get their score from kaeshi waza. However, IMHO, it really mentally frustrate your opponents and make them hesitate and confused. Which will eventually lead to successful Men or Kote.... At kyu level, it is very hard to do kaeshi waza but I recommend you to practice as much as your can. Practice make you better...

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