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  • #16
    Originally posted by G-CHAN View Post
    Hi Neil sensei

    There's a lot of truth and wisdom to this. I think Curtis sensei hit the nail on the head. Believe it or not, I can execute a shikake nuki doh and I do it exactly how I *tried* to describe it. My apologies for not articulating it better. I think we both know it's better to show and tell.

    My sensei said exactly what Curtis sensei said...the key to executing nuki/migi doh (shikage waza) is to make the aite think you're executing a men. When I execute nuki doh...I try to catch the aite flat footed. If I'm successful at doing this, the aites natural response will be to lift his shinai to block exposing his doh just enough giving me the chance to nuki/migi doh. If i remember correctly....I think this falls in the category of seme by striking. I could be wrong. No surprise there.

    I execute debena nuki doh the exact same way except for the difference in timing.
    @halcyon migi doh to me is hitting the aites right side.

    Happy Thanksgiving guys!!!
    Good point!

    However your explanation assumes that you have a weak opponent who would rather pause the fight and simply block an attack he is uncomfortable with as opposed to doing some oji waza. I have to say if you attempted that in our dojo you would be on the recieving end of a debanna men / kote the moment you 'attempt' to make your opponent think you are attacking men.

    I am happier in the knowledge we are drilling our technique to execute a demanna kote or men whenever the opponent moves, even at the ultimate loss of dou (in gikeiko we still drill it in kihon). Rather than practice dou whilst being reliant on a dojo-mate blocking (then us as sempei are probably teaching this blocking notion either directly in class or indirectly in actions).

    PS. we are not anti-dou at all.... just over the years, its just not really well utilised here!

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    • #17
      Sorry man... that reads as me being a little elitist...
      I am not trying to come from that perspective... we have a deficiency in our dojo.... we all do really bad dou and do not practice it enough. But I think the reason for that is we try really hard not to block and focus heavily on oji waza over blocking or raising the shinai aimlessly.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Curtis View Post
        Pavlov's conditioned response. Men, men, doh. You cannot hit doh unless they believe you are hitting their men. This is simplest way I teach my students. Get them blocking the men.

        After that you find ways to make them break their kamae and react to a threat to the men.

        +1!


        I would add for Charlie that one also needs to recognize types. When you move in to attack, some will attack in kind, some will move up to cover men. Some will step back, or step back and even gedan. Not occasionally, but consistently. You seme a few times, and you will see which type you're dealing with, on average. The ones who instinctively move up... you know as soon as you move to threaten that do will likely be open.

        Unless they're playing you, but that's a different issue.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by b8amack View Post
          +1!


          I would add for Charlie that one also needs to recognize types. When you move in to attack, some will attack in kind, some will move up to cover men. Some will step back, or step back and even gedan. Not occasionally, but consistently. You seme a few times, and you will see which type you're dealing with, on average. The ones who instinctively move up... you know as soon as you move to threaten that do will likely be open.

          Unless they're playing you, but that's a different issue.
          I've made a career out of this on the floor. People will at some point react to a stimuli. What I lack in polished basics I try to make up for in being opportunistic.

          To me kendo is a whole set of conditioned responses to different stimuli. When I watch the hachidan tournament I see the same thing. Sooner or later one of them reacts to some form of movement or pressure and the other exploits it. We see anything from a step and pause to the initiation of an attack.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by G-CHAN View Post
            Happy thanksgiving my friend.
            You, too, coach. You see it is in part through your encouragement that I am asking about this! Because you gave me the advice to develop my oji waza - I know doh isn't oji per se but in that same spirit I just need to diversify my waza and can't let this one go.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by b8amack View Post
              +1!


              I would add for Charlie that one also needs to recognize types. When you move in to attack, some will attack in kind, some will move up to cover men. Some will step back, or step back and even gedan. Not occasionally, but consistently. You seme a few times, and you will see which type you're dealing with, on average. The ones who instinctively move up... you know as soon as you move to threaten that do will likely be open.

              Unless they're playing you, but that's a different issue.
              You're right and it touches on what bobdonny is saying. Doh works best, it seems, on the type of kenshi that opens it for whatever reasons, i.e. because they are defensive or make the gestures that allow that opening to be exploited or because they commit to men and allow a nuki or debana opportunity (I would think this is most people). Some people simply fight in a way that keeps doh pretty well covered or does not allow you to set up timing for that particular waza and you have to take a different approach. At least this is what I think - the waza is tailored to the opponent, the situation.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by bobdonny View Post
                We drill our club till they are numb to never ever block..... result.... its all but impossible to practice dou in gigeiko.... the odd time someone will block or we can force them to move then we can try a dou.

                Sure we can try a kaeshi dou, but if we can't practice a decent dou in the first place kaeshi dou is out the window....

                The result is we are all crap at dou... but the other side is we never block and therefore its very difficult (if not impossible... I've never seen it anyway in a taikai) to score dou on us....

                We are douless
                I have to interpret this to some degree as you just haven't encountered anyone really good at doh. Not surprising since so many people spend the bulk of their practice on men and kote. After all they are the high percentage points. And all too frequently I hear people say they don't do doh because they are not good at it.

                So if you divide your practice up in to the three strikes and one thrust, how many of you spend 25% of your waza practice on doh? I'm willing to bet almost no one. To me there is the answer. If you want to be good at it then you have to put in the time. Even at my dojo we sure don't, but we now spend more time on it then I used to.

                I also look at and teach doh based on the physical motion of it. Men and kote are a curvilinear motion. Doh is a compund motion since it adds a deviation from center of the right hand. Add to that most people don't end doh with the left in the center either. Then there is the baseball swing. As I said earlier, efficiency of motion.

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                • #23
                  To me kendo is a whole set of conditioned responses to different stimuli.
                  Solid.

                  Even at my dojo we sure don't, but we now spend more time on it then I used to.
                  We are devoting substantially more time to it as well...
                  Not on our main night, but on our two other classes during the week (one of which typically includes only a handful of people, 1.dan+)...

                  The beauty in really trying to practice do-uchi (either nuki/debana-do or kaeshi-do) is that you should be getting equal practice time for debana-men... sashi-men... whatever... and that's a good thing.

                  And if you've got an even number of people in practice so nobody rotates out, then you're never getting a break by being motodachi... it's full-time, full-on....

                  Wears the hell out of me, quite frankly...

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                  • #24
                    Charlie, buy an old woden chair with no arms but a back from a used furniture store. buy a used tire from a small tire shop. About 2-4 bungee cords & some roofing nails. Stand the tire on the chair with the O of the tire supported by the chair back. Nail the bottom of it to the chair seat. Then bungee both sides to the back--this makes it super sturdy! Do Dummy should be perfect! I hit about 200 Do's on this thing a day Both Hidari & Migi. I always pretty much follow the instructions of how to hit doh as G-Chan posted: making the swing the same as men; keeping left hand in the middle. I also use the same footwork that Neil Sensei teaches; also, I make sure each swing is explosive like my men and kote swing( not a steady ramping of speed, but like the release of a stretched rubber band). The good thing about this chair tire dummy is you can go through after hitting it and it only cost a total of 22.00. ^_^ Hope this helps...Charlie Sensei...following is a picture without the bungee cords after being nailed.
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                    • #25
                      This is side view...so that you can see the bungee cord attached to keep the tire sturdy: one on both sides. oh and use a shinai you dont use for practice.

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                      • #26
                        WOW! Thanks, Boku!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Charlie View Post
                          WOW! Thanks, Boku!
                          You welcome, Sir. I think steady practice on it really helps...not so much of banging it hard, but focusing on form, tenouchi, footwork and posture...cause' sometimes swinging in the air at home just isn't enough...in addition, you don't have to worry about hurting it if you miss ^_^

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                          • #28
                            Charlie, I forgot to mention one other tip.

                            When I seme in, I try to slide my shinai on top of my opponent's shinai EVER SO SLIGHTLY, with shinogi to shinogi contact. This makes it slightly more difficult for my opponent to get the straight line down the center for debana-men. So I can either go debana-men myself, or I can go kaeshi-doh. But you have to be subtle about it when you seme in. If you push too much, then you set yourself up for de-gote.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bobdonny View Post
                              Sorry man... that reads as me being a little elitist...
                              I am not trying to come from that perspective... we have a deficiency in our dojo.... we all do really bad dou and do not practice it enough. But I think the reason for that is we try really hard not to block and focus heavily on oji waza over blocking or raising the shinai aimlessly.
                              It's still a really crap excuse, though. As Marsten-sensei says: If you want to get better at it, practice it more.

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                              • #30
                                GOOD Thing You're Not a Pizza Pie! Bah


                                Originally posted by bobdonny View Post
                                We drill our club till they are numb to never ever block..... result.... its all but impossible to practice dou in gigeiko.... the odd time someone will block or we can force them to move then we can try a dou.

                                Sure we can try a kaeshi dou, but if we can't practice a decent dou in the first place kaeshi dou is out the window....

                                The result is we are all crap at dou... but the other side is we never block and therefore its very difficult (if not impossible... I've never seen it anyway in a taikai) to score dou on us....

                                We are douless

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