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  • #16
    Originally posted by tango View Post
    last three posts there are very interesting... raffa -- thanks for asking your sensei about it... these are all things that I'll be keeping in mind as I work on this waza...
    There is a misunderstanding. Ishiyama sensei is not my sensei (but it would be beautiful), he is an hachidan from Tokyo police (and an important Itto-ryu sensei) that once an year comes in the Chianti area for a very interesting seminar. When I read this post I was just in the right place at the right time so I seized the opportunity to ask. The sensei had been very nice answering my questions.

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    • #17
      No worries....

      So, at last night's practice (three 4.dans, one 3.dan, two 1.dan), I had better success...
      One of the other 4.dans knows that I've got this waza on my mind and he was leading class last night... during kihon, we really drilled ai-uchi men, and that gave me an opportunity to work a little bit on the waza before we got to jigeiko.

      Clearly, there are several things going on all at once (timing, maai, swing..), but -- at least for last night -- the thing about 'hands up to face level' was a big key to it... I did get drilled by debana-kote a few times, and against one of the 4.dans, it seems what happened was that he was able to get me to commit to men a little too early in the exchange.. the seme was good and I was thinking he was going for men, so started to slow down my own men to try and be a little 'late' (for the kiriotoshi), but then he simply went to de-kote and that was that. There must be some kind of 'happy medium' for when to move the hands... still need to work on this.

      As for maai, there were a couple of times when I definitely managed to get too close.. or I allowed aite to get too close. Obviously, the seme needs to get aite to attack men, and I'm thinking the attacking mentality might supposed to be similar to (or the same as) that for suriage-men.. I do suriage-men a LOT, but since the action is kinda 'backwards' from suriage, that's messing me up a little bit.

      On the ashi-sabaki, I decided twisting my hips to the left or 'stepping across' with migi-ashi (which I think essentially accomplishes the same thing maybe) was too awkward for me to do subconsciously, so I decided to play around with Maeda-sensei (7.dan)'s advice to move the left hand slightly to the left; right hand stays perfectly in the center. And when I say left hand slightly to the left, I mean REALLY VERY SLIGHTLY... maybe just a couple of inches..
      This worked exceedingly well during the ai-uchi kihon and proved to work pretty well in jigeiko as well..

      Still need a lot of time on the floor with this waza... I don't know if I can see light at the end of the tunnel just yet, but I can sense the light is definitely there...

      Thanks again for everone's replies..

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Halcyon View Post
        For me, when kiriotoshi does happen, it FEELS like it's because my opponent's tenouchi not as strong as mine.
        Luke tried to focus on improving tenouchi last night, borrowing his understanding from iai cuts. Boy-o-boy, it made a night and day difference! Although at my level, I really don't know what I am doing, it felt really good and I got more solid men than before. Father gives good advice, thank you, thank you.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by tango View Post
          So, at last night's practice (three 4.dans, one 3.dan, two 1.dan), I had better success...
          One of the other 4.dans knows that I've got this waza on my mind and he was leading class last night... during kihon, we really drilled ai-uchi men, and that gave me an opportunity to work a little bit on the waza before we got to jigeiko.

          Clearly, there are several things going on all at once (timing, maai, swing..), but -- at least for last night -- the thing about 'hands up to face level' was a big key to it... I did get drilled by debana-kote a few times, and against one of the 4.dans, it seems what happened was that he was able to get me to commit to men a little too early in the exchange.. the seme was good and I was thinking he was going for men, so started to slow down my own men to try and be a little 'late' (for the kiriotoshi), but then he simply went to de-kote and that was that. There must be some kind of 'happy medium' for when to move the hands... still need to work on this.
          Hi tango

          Expanding a little on maai...when executing a particular waza such as kiriotoshi in jigeiko, you really need to establish your maai to the aite. For example, one of the ways a good kenshi will try to do is gain control by manipulating distance by using the element of surprise. He'll do this to create two possible opportunities...

          1) He's trying to get you to commit so he can oji

          2) You hesitate or become defensive so he can shikake

          This is not a very good situation to use kiriotoshi. You need to respond in kind...a better option would be to use osae, harai or uchiotoshi. You need to convey the message that stepping into your chikama is the wrong thing to do. this might not stop him from trying again, but at least he'll know what could happen if he does. When executing oji, you need some measure of control by either forcing the aite to attack or by recognizing intent.

          When you think about executing kiriotoshi in jigeiko, you need to think about the situation in which to use it. Kiriotoshi is not as versatile as suriage. So... finding the right *time* to execute kiriotoshi will help you with your timing. Creating opportunities and *good timing* go hand in hand.

          p.s. When you raise the shinai, you need to bend your wrists at the last possible moment, this will help give you some protection from dekote. i know kiriotoshi is not oji waza. For the life of me i don't know why that is.

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          • #20
            Thanks very much (again)...

            So last night was another learning experience with this. During the kihon, we got to the point of doing aiuchi-men, and I was regularly able to pound the kiriotoshi.. it felt as if I were hitting men unnaturally solid (for me).. so that felt good.

            Then we got to jigeiko...
            Expanding a little on maai...when executing a particular waza such as kiriotoshi in jigeiko, you really need to establish your maai to the aite. For example, one of the ways a good kenshi will try to do is gain control by manipulating distance by using the element of surprise. He'll do this to create two possible opportunities...

            1) He's trying to get you to commit so he can oji

            2) You hesitate or become defensive so he can shikake

            This is not a very good situation to use kiriotoshi. You need to respond in kind...a better option would be to use osae, harai or uchiotoshi. You need to convey the message that stepping into your chikama is the wrong thing to do. this might not stop him from trying again, but at least he'll know what could happen if he does. When executing oji, you need some measure of control by either forcing the aite to attack or by recognizing intent
            Yes, after last night's experience, what you say there makes perfect sense to me, and I did start to kinda realize what you describe. Against my regular training partner (4.dan), I was sometimes WAITING for something to happen (result: get hit, of course), but more often, I wasn't able to get him to attack men at the maai I wanted (needed) him to go for it. .... I think part of that problem is that we've been doing keiko against either other for more than 15 years now.... but in any case, it's clear... my seme just wasn't effective enough.

            Last night, he was especially aggressive in physically moving in and keeping his kamae.. and this led me to hesitating a number of times (result: get hit, of course). When I decided to quit thinking about kiriotoshi altogether, things got back to normal (back to a more level playing field between the two of us).

            When you think about executing kiriotoshi in jigeiko, you need to think about the situation in which to use it. Kiriotoshi is not as versatile as suriage. So... finding the right *time* to execute kiriotoshi will help you with your timing. Creating opportunities and *good timing* go hand in hand.
            Yes, I'll keep that in mind..

            p.s. When you raise the shinai, you need to bend your wrists at the last possible moment, this will help give you some protection from dekote.
            Yeah, that's going to be an ongoing lesson for me, it seems. Got to work on that because if the timing is wrong and your hands are wrong, well.... last night, let's say my timing and hands were wrong on several exchanges...

            Continued thanks...

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