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  • #16
    If it helps, I have heard it said repeatedly in different seminar by different sensei that the cut should be a bit stronger. The reminder given is usually, "The men cut must go to the chin, not just the top of the head."

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    • #17
      One of the best pieces of advice I've gotten regarding judging ippon is that ultimately the strike must move your heart.

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      • #18
        From page 6 of the Shinpan Tebiki Guide: The requirements for Yūkō Datotsu are defined in Article 12 of the Shiai - Shinpan Regulations, to be striking a valid target (datotsu bui), with the correct part of the shiai (shinai datotsu bu) with full spirit, correct posture, and using zanshin. Fullfilling this definition for yūkō datotsu results in the special characteristic for an ippon (point) in Kendō.
        &
        Also the quality of the ippon waza must be considered in cases of light hits or strikes (datotsu), strange waza, etc. It is important to evaluate waza (technique) differences against the criteria for yūkō datotsu, instead of something simply being too light for ippon.

        Page 21, related to a discussion about katate waza, but relevant to this topic;
        ① If it meets the requirements for yūkō datotsu then it is ippon.
        ② No specific criteria exists for how hard should the hit be. The decision should be based only upon your experience and the definition of yūkō datotsu.
        ③ Opinions can vary between shinpan-in but working together three shinpan-in can reach an objective conclusion.

        I would suggest that yuko datotsu be evaluated against the definition of a valid strike, instead of using different criteria for different waza.

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        • #19
          I like a few of the answers in this thread, but I really tend to agree with Jakob's point here at the bottom of the previous page:
          I think as a senior, it's your prerogative to declare the hits too light. I know that with our old teacher (who has now retired to Japan), we had to hit much more solid during keiko than was ever required in shiai.
          In Japan, (generalizing here from relatively little real experience), they seem more likely to give points based on timing & opportunity rather than the actual hit.
          In my own shimpan experience, I want to say that most of the time, when I have seen what I would consider to be a "weak strike", it wasn't that i thought the strike was weak so much as I thought there was some defect in posture that didn't look right (not to my satisfaction, anyway) which led to a weak strike... Either that, or the strike was simply too shallow in my observation...

          Then again, surely there are times when a strike really is just weak, even with great opportunity and timing. My rationale (using monday morning QBing line of thinking) is that if you had great opportunity and great timing, you should have been able to really get a solid hit.... and as if to second guess myself, at the moment of truth (in a real setting), I might be more forgiving of a weak strike watching 1.dans than when watching 5.dans... then again, I think one is less apt to see weak(er) strikes from 5.dans than 1.dans... but I digress...

          the bottom line as far as I'm concerned is what Stroud sensei points out:
          Opinions can vary between shinpan-in but working together three shinpan-in can reach an objective conclusion.
          Sheesh... how many times have I been shushin with the player on my right go for debana-kote against the player on my left, CLEARLY and completely miss the target, only to have both fukushin who are not nearly in a better position to see the datotsu-bu, score it.

          One of the things I dislike about being shushin is being in the perfect position to see that an attack CLEARLY did not score, and then have to raise my flag anyway because two really green 3.dan fukushin scored it. But nevermind...

          Incidentally, I don't know if you guys can immediately see this, check out this pic on our facebook page (Memphis Kendo Club.. which you might have to 'join' on FB in order to see):

          ippon or no?
          http://www.facebook.com/groups/72631...type=3&theater

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Halcyon View Post
            One of the best pieces of advice I've gotten regarding judging ippon is that ultimately the strike must move your heart.
            I like that.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by tango View Post
              No point, missed the men-buton. You should have been able to hear that was wrong.

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              • #22
                Interesting, we covered that exact topic in a shinpan seminar we had locally recently. Several of the instructors who went to the FIK seminar in Canada and I believe they said to score that, even to the point if the person is retreating and bends their head back and the shinai hits the mengane, that too would be a point. But I could be mistaken with the interpretation, just thought I'd bring it up.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Toecutter View Post
                  Interesting, we covered that exact topic in a shinpan seminar we had locally recently. Several of the instructors who went to the FIK seminar in Canada and I believe they said to score that, even to the point if the person is retreating and bends their head back and the shinai hits the mengane, that too would be a point. But I could be mistaken with the interpretation, just thought I'd bring it up.
                  Yes, you are confusing the exception with the rule. Hitting the top of the mengane like that is not a point unless the opponent has been clearly beaten and is bending back in an attempt to avoid the hit. In the picture the opponent has clearly been nicely caught but he isn't doing anything to avoid the hit, the attacker is simply short.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tango View Post
                    Incidentally, I don't know if you guys can immediately see this, check out this pic on our facebook page (Memphis Kendo Club.. which you might have to 'join' on FB in order to see):

                    ippon or no?
                    http://www.facebook.com/groups/72631886109/photos/#!/photo.php?fbid=1118736969838&set=o.72631886109&typ e=3&theater
                    It is impossible to evaluate if it is yuko datotsu from a still image. Even with video it is very difficult to see things like spirit, position of the hit, zanshin. In this photo, there are far too many questions raised about what happened before and after. For example, if the guy ran up with his shinai extended before the hit and poked the top of the men gane, then everyone can agree no point. If however, in the next few frames for film/time the shinai continued forward moving the point of contact deeper into the mono uchi, then perhaps yes this is a point. What about zanshin? Did the attacker demonstrate proper zanshin after this hit?

                    That is why I don't like making absolute statements about the judging in various youtube videos. Most do not give you enough information. For that you need several angles, at real and slow speed and even then it is not the same as being in the shiai jo with the competitors.

                    Shinpan is something that needs to be studied and practices by those judging. For me I try to go to as many taikai as possible to judge so that I can improve my shinpan skill. I see this as analogous to developing any other type of skill in kendo be it waza, reiho, etc.

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                    • #25
                      Ahh, thank you for the correction, that makes much more sense.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by R Stroud View Post
                        It is impossible to evaluate if it is yuko datotsu from a still image. Even with video it is very difficult to see things like spirit, position of the hit, zanshin. In this photo, there are far too many questions raised about what happened before and after. For example, if the guy ran up with his shinai extended before the hit and poked the top of the men gane, then everyone can agree no point. If however, in the next few frames for film/time the shinai continued forward moving the point of contact deeper into the mono uchi, then perhaps yes this is a point. What about zanshin? Did the attacker demonstrate proper zanshin after this hit?
                        That's some fine equivocating you're doing there, and I agree with it. However, if the only contact was as given in the picture, is it likely to be ippon in your opinion given that the other elements for yuko-datotsu are present?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
                          No point, missed the men-buton. You should have been able to hear that was wrong.
                          At least 2 of the 3 shimpan did not agree... just FYI..

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tango View Post
                            At least 2 of the 3 shimpan did not agree... just FYI..
                            Well as Robert quite correctly pointed out, hard to tell from a still picture.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              i remember that point very clearly in my mind..

                              i was definitely "caught" ... but I remember thinking, 'gosh, that barely even touched anything.. in fact, i remember "feeling" that it hit right on the very top rung of the mengane... but, that said, I remember thinking aite's motion and follow up "felt"/looked (from my angle anyway) very good, too..

                              In any case, it was scored...

                              I had a feeling somebody would mention "impossible to tell from still photo", and I tend to agree.. I just thought I'd throw it out there for comment based only on what was shown, assuming 'all else equal'...

                              ANYWAY, I'll admit that although that's me getting hit, I think it's great timing on the photo...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by R Stroud View Post
                                Shinpan is something that needs to be studied and practices by those judging. For me I try to go to as many taikai as possible to judge so that I can improve my shinpan skill. I see this as analogous to developing any other type of skill in kendo be it waza, reiho, etc.

                                BTW, I completely agree with your statement there.../

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