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When is it appropriate to start learning sashi waza?

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  • When is it appropriate to start learning sashi waza?

    Thread title pretty much speaks for itself. I've heard different things. I think I started doing sashi-kote on my own around ikkyu and officially learned sashi-men either as an ikkyu or shodan. Some people think you should teach sashi attacks as soon as possible, others the opposite. Your thoughts?

    By the way, I hope I have my term correct. Sashi attacks are the small, fast attacks in which the shinai is NOT raised over the head but, rather, you attack with the hips and perform tenouchi as you fall/leap toward tsuki.

  • #2
    Hmm, the way my sempai showed us small, medium and large attacks is that they are all the same form except that exactly as they are named you dont perform them as big. hmm difficult to explain. use the same technique for each, he showed it to us well, by making a smooth transition from big men to smaller men, that helped me understand what he meant. try asking your sensei. hmm hope ive painted a good picture of what ive been shown to be big/medium/small hits.


    • #3
      I don't find that to be true at all. I make the distinction between "big" and "small" technique by saying that in big technique, the shoulders are involved whereas in small technique it's mostly or all wrist. Which is not to say that the tip can't travel quite a lot when using small technique. If you try to make a small attack using shoulders like a full swing, you'll be very slow.

      I try not to show smaller technique until the student has been in bogu for a while and it's clear that he can make big attacks well, but is being held back by not having a faster option.


      • #4
        Well, that's the rub, isn't it, Neil? You want the person to be more competitive in shiai or jigeiko and the sashi waza seem a must.

        What's a "medium?" Mine go from big to small - although, I guess in some cases you're lifting, just not all the way up. Not a fan of that, I usually go big or small.


        • #5
          To me, "medium" is a competitive big technique - say, where you lift your hands up to about face height, like for a doh. It's still a big technique because the mechanics involve the shoulders. You're just not going for the full butt-slapping warm-up men.

          As far as sashi-waza - just say no. When I think sashi-waza, I think super-light contact and about 6" of tip movement. Get enough tip motion in there to make a solid contact. What's "enough"? Varies by your ability.


          • #6
            I do agree with you neil. When i do a big men, i find the focus is on power. When i do small men its more the forward movement that makes the sound of the hit, as you dont life the shinai much, but i still agree with my sempai that the form should remain the same, perhaps you are right in saying the focus is on different muscles.


            • #7
              I also think that there is not any 'small' technique
              It's either big or medium

              if you watch any good competitor, there is always quite a big movement of the tip of the shinai. It's just very very fast and fluid.

              either way it's tough ...


              • #8
                Not sure I agree with you guys. Are you saying you never do sashi waza?


                • #9
                  I just try to do a litte bigger than what I think is called sashi waza.

                  Just so that the shinai actually swings you know. I used to do only sashi men before actualy seeing people with crazy kendo who actually do quite big techniques.

                  look at any good High school student in Japan and you will see they do pretty big men uchi.

                  but if someone does sashi men with a lot of momentum foward it can look strong enough to be a point. or if you start a swing where the kensen is already low you don't need to do a big swing for having a strong strike: See miyazaki!!


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kendokamax
                    I just try to do a litte bigger than what I think is called sashi waza.
                    What he said. Several sensei (including my own) speak of sashi waza in derogatory terms. I define it as a wrist-based technique where the tip travel/speed/force is insufficient. Basically, one where all semblance of cutting motion is sacrificed to speed.


                    • #11
                      ...I thought cutting has more to do with te-no-uchi than big or small...?


                      • #12
                        You need some speed and force. This is one of those things where it would be best if I could demonstrate.


                        • #13
                          You're the uber nerd, Neil, make with the digital camera!


                          • #14
                            haha virtual kendo lesson?

                            go neil we are waiting!


                            • #15
                              I can't really answer that question, but I have a few thoughts I like to put out there for criticism...

                              I think there is value in keeping the swing big for lower ranked people so they don't start thinking a successful attack is all about speed.

                              I used to think the reason I could not make ippon in a match with a big cut was just because my swing was too slow. Gradually I figured out that it was mostly because I was not observing my opponent and choosing a good time to attack. My Kendo improved when I resolved to keep making big cuts, and pay more attention to finding a good opportunity. It seems like when I'm really successful at breaking my opponent's kamae I have all the time in the world to strike.

                              I guess I subscribe to the idea that "the long way around is the shortest way home."