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  • Waza with suriashi instead of fumikomi ashi

    I have some questions about the waza with suriashi.
    In general, I think most kenshis use fumikomiashi with Men uchi, kote uchi, and do uchi. However, when I observe kata, there is no fumikomi ashi with it.

    Is it okay for one to use suriashi with wazas instead of fumikomi ashi during even a shiai setting?

    For example, wazas like kote suriage kote, men suriage men both omote and ura, hiki do with suriashi, men kaeshi kote, dekote, etc.
    It seems to me those wazas above might be okay to use even during a shiai.
    I am curious whether Ki ken tai no ichi should be done with fumikomi ashi.
    I didn't have a chance to ask these questions to my sensei yet.

    My men uchi is almost suriashi and the last moment do fumikomi because in this way, I feel more balanced. For dekote, I feel just doing suriashi is suitable enough. am I doing something wrong?

    The other question is..
    While doing hiki wazas (men, kote, doh), should the center of weight be shifted to back (so it looks a little bit bent instead the back straight) and simultaneously doing right foot fumikomi ashi all the time? This point is described by kendo definitive guide a little bit.
    What if one do hiki wazas without shifting the weight of the center (so one's back looks straight) and do the suriashi?

    Any help will be appreciated.

  • #2
    Fumikomiashi needs to be done to make your strike complete in shiai. It has to do with ki-ken-tai-ichi, and putting force behind your strike and excellerating you through your cut. There are drills that have been practiced at my dojo that are done withh suriashi instead of fumikomiashi though, but only to work on the timing of the footwork and sword work coming together as one.

    I'm not really sure why fumikomiashi isn't used in kata, but I think a safe guess would be that it's because kata tell stories. They show the developement of Kendo in them, so to have something fast paced like fumikomiashi in them, would serve no purpose. Especially since the point of the cuts isn't to physically strike the person you are doing them with, cut to match your timing with the other person, depending on which role you are being. But that is definitely a question I will be asking my sensei at our next practice.

    Well that's my two cents.

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    • #3
      Pan-Chan, Thank you for the reply.

      Yes, fumikomiashi is easily visible to show kikenTAIich. But I still think it's the visibility issue. Does kikenTAIichi always requires fumikomiashi?

      How about morote tzuki using full budy with suriashi?

      I just want to know the more concrete foundation behind this footwork.

      Besides, suriashi could be a very effective response while counter attacking and also it could be not too obvious at the moment of attack because suriashi and ashisabaki is basically same sort.

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      • #4
        the only waza i can think of using only suriashi would be:

        kaeshi do or nuki do.
        semete-men kote.

        and nuki men and gyaku do ..but no need of suriashi.. just stay on the same spot is ok.
        Last edited by kendokamax; 31st January 2005, 10:47 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by kendokamax
          kaeshi do or nuki do.
          semete-men kote.
          Interesting. Men-kaeshi-do and men-nuki-doh using suriashi. I am going to try those next time. Do you mean semete-men kote as similar as dekote I described above? Is it sen sen no sen or sen no sen? (Honestly, I don't know exact difference between two. I just heard of those before, but do not know what it is exactly.) This idea of semes can be another big question, anyways?

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          • #6
            by semete-men kote I mean
            entering with the right foot with the intention of going to men (in other word: a feint to the men), then the oponent will try to block the men and the kote will be open...

            well you can do that using fumikomi too, might be more effective (since the men will look more "sincere")..and more chance that the kote sounds powerfull enough to make a point with fumikomi!

            anyway its pretty basic seme! (only i can make work.. so far..)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BrainFart
              Pan-Chan, Thank you for the reply.

              Yes, fumikomiashi is easily visible to show kikenTAIich. But I still think it's the visibility issue. Does kikenTAIichi always requires fumikomiashi?
              Hmmm, I don't really think it is always needed. I mean, as you have said, there are attacks that do not REQUIRE fumikomiashi. But I think fumikomiashi makes striking with ki-ken-tai-ichi successfully more possible.

              Again I am not really sure, but I think fumikomiashi was developed for the purpose of fighting in modern Kendo, because I highly doubt that samurai would seemingly lunge at their opponent with their strikes. So I think a very rational idea behind fumikomiashi and its role in ki-ken-tai-ichi, is to teach the kenshi how to strike with the body when it is practiced correctly. That way after doing it correctly for long enough, you would beable to cut with your body alone and not need to use fumikomiashi. I mean take many hachidan hanshi for example, I rarely see them do fumikomiashi when fighting AND they still get yuko datotsu with their strikes, not counting in taikais of course.

              I'm sure these things have already come across your mind, but I'm just trying to think of a reason with my limited Kendo knowledge. ^^; And about the tsuki, I really don't know, I'm not quite to shodan yet, soon though.
              Last edited by Pan-Chan; 31st January 2005, 03:57 PM.

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              • #8
                Interesting question, i think we need the input of a teacher on this one , where are you Neil?

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                • #9
                  For a correct attack you are supposed to use proper footwork.
                  This CAN be Fumikomi-ashi. But it is not limited to fumikomi.
                  You may use any kind of proper footwork, as long as you keep ki-ken-tai-ichi.
                  Good footwork for a men-attack is e.g. okuri-ashi (suriashi), good footwork for, let`s say, nuki-waza, is hiraki-ashi.
                  The point is: as a beginner you SHOULD concentrate on fumikomi. While using fumikomi you`ve got to synchronize your hit with your right foot. This is completely different when using other kinds of footwork - which makes ki-ken-tai-ichi very difficult.
                  So I`d say that other ways of using your feet on an attack than fumikomi might be fine for more advanced players. As beginners one might consider just to concentrate on fumikomi-ashi.

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                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=BrainFart]I have some questions about the waza with suriashi.
                    In general, I think most kenshis use fumikomiashi with Men uchi, kote uchi, and do uchi. However, when I observe kata, there is no fumikomi ashi with it...

                    Actually in the Dai Nippon Teikoku Kendo Kata, fumikomi was performed with each of the shidachi's counter-attacks. This kata was the basis for what we now perform as Nihon Kendo Kata. To reason that "kata is x, shiai is y, therefore..." is probably unproductive IMHO. So I think Chusan's reply is excellent.

                    b

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                    • #11
                      What Chusan said.

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                      • #12
                        But if you do several attacking techniques in row, can you limit the fumikomi to one technique?

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                        • #13
                          To shorten this discussion up: if you're at the level of experience where you are asking this question, you should always use fumikomi. Just be aware that other types of footwork will be open to you when you get some more experience.

                          Tantadi - for multiple attacks, it's easiest to use fumikomi on every attack.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
                            Just be aware that other types of footwork will be open to you when you get some more experience.

                            Tantadi - for multiple attacks, it's easiest to use fumikomi on every attack.
                            Yes, definetely, I am using fumikomiashi most of times.

                            I agree multiple attack should be go with fumikomiashi.

                            But in certain times, I still think it looks more natural to apply suriashi instead of fumikomiashi. especially, the advanced waza related with hirakiashi seems to me more natural.

                            The other thought about this foundation, suriashi can be more related with cutting action rather than improving sae using fumikomiashi since when one tries suriashi, kikentaiichi will be complete after pulling left leg rather stamping right foot and hitting, but also it's hard for one to perceive ki-ken-tai-ich and also hard to be perceived by observer.

                            Are we all beginners in terms of thinking about the basic foundation again?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BrainFart
                              I still think it looks more natural to apply suriashi instead of fumikomiashi. especially, the advanced waza related with hirakiashi seems to me more natural.
                              Although I totally agree with Neil, in that if you need to ask then just use fumikomi, I suggest you scroll back up the page and re-read Chusan's post, I think you'll find that it accurately answers your question.

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