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  • reverse uchiotoshi?

    I'm watching a video of the recent local team try-outs (for AUSKF nationals), and one of the yondan kenshi does this move: from chudan no kamae, he lowers the end of the shinai and slams it upward, making the opponent's shinai fly up, then steps in for men cut. I think it's like a reverse uchiotoshi in that you slam your opponent's shinai up from below rather than down from above. Is this technique valid? Does it have a name? Does anyone employ this in their sparring and is it effective?

  • #2
    I think in Go Rin No Sho Musashi explains a techinque like that, except i think it's more like: Slaps down, up, then down again...

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    • #3
      Just sounds like haraiage-men to me... by no means an unusual technique.

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      • #4
        Thanks, KoM. I just needed some accurate terms to work with so I could search it. Tried searching for uchi-age at first and got a bunch of surnames. Haraiage-men...gotcha.

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        • #5
          O_o??? Harai-age? I've heard of suri-age... Its a waza where you start at chudan, and when opponent goes kote, you do a half-crescent to your right to deflect the opponents shinai out of the way (usually very slight). What this does is breaks the opponents seme (for your kote) and you can hit their men. If this description is off, please by all means chime in.

          Tim
          Last edited by samurai999; 3rd May 2005, 03:56 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by samurai999
            O_o??? Harai-age?
            If you search for harai, you'll get all kinds of threads about both harai and suri waza.

            So many different terms... My head is one big swirling mess of uchi-achi-age-otoshi-debana-ouji-shikake-harai-suri-hiki-maai-kamae-itto-nuki-kaeshi, etc...

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            • #7
              I know what harai is, but there is a difference between suri-age and harai waza. I've just never heard the term harai-age before. (though I can guess what it can mean). And I STILL can't get it right in practice.. dammit...

              Tim

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              • #8
                well, 'harai' means sweep, and you can add 'ageru' (or to make it a noun, 'age') onto the end to indicate an upwards motion. Same for 'otoshi', except this time it's a downwards motion. For example, suriage and suriotoshi (sliding up and sliding down). Binni didn't mention the opponent unleashing any kind of technique, so it's unlikely to be suriage (which is a counter-technique. I've heard people use the term suriage for what I'd call haraiage outside of Japan, but have never ever heard or read this in Japan, which makes me suspect that it's a misuse of the term, although I can't be certain). There are plenty of other examples in kendo, such as makiotoshi and makiage (although I've only ever met one person who uses the latter).
                Despite the proliferation of such words, I advise against trying to make your own, or even presume to understand what it might mean without asking somebody who definitely knows, as it's very easy to come up with either non-existent words, or misused words. The latter includes suriage for haraiage (probably), and people saying kiriotoshi when they mean uchiotoshi. In theory they could mean the same thing, but in practice they don't. Uchiotoshi is a kendo technique in which you knock down the opponent's shinai, kiriotoshi is an itto ryu technique which, if you don't know it, is kind of a bit like reverse suriage.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kingofmyrrh
                  I've heard people use the term suriage for what I'd call haraiage outside of Japan, but have never ever heard or read this in Japan, which makes me suspect that it's a misuse of the term, although I can't be certain).
                  meh... I have never heard harai-age being used in the US where I go to practice. its always Harai-men or kote suriage-men that is said during practice where harai is used to break kamae and suriage is used to break seme of the kote... I have heard of suriotoshi, but only in kata #10.. Maybe matusda sensei (amatsuda) from SJ dojo or maybe one of the Marsten Senseis from PNKF can shed some light on this subject.

                  Tim
                  Last edited by samurai999; 3rd May 2005, 08:40 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kingofmyrrh
                    and people saying kiriotoshi when they mean uchiotoshi. In theory they could mean the same thing, but in practice they don't. Uchiotoshi is a kendo technique in which you knock down the opponent's shinai, kiriotoshi is an itto ryu technique which, if you don't know it, is kind of a bit like reverse suriage.
                    isnt kiriotoshi and uchitoshi the same thing?

                    I thought it would be like uchikaeshi and kirikaeshi:
                    I heard the term kirikaeshi is not used when practicing with younger children in Japan because of the "kiri" means cutting and it sounds too harsh for young kids.

                    For me I felt that uchitoshi might be used more by younger kendoka that are more related to waza for making points, where older kendoka would use the term kiriotoshi because the kendo they do is more about the feeling of cuting their opponents.

                    Oh that makes me remember something funny.

                    once in kendo class at budai the teacher showed a tenugui and asked all the students how it was called ? there was a strange silence...and then one of my japanese friend TAMURA (who is a famous kendoka of his generation) dared to anwser : <men taoru?> (men towel) he said....

                    me and my other foreigner friends where soooo- surprised that they couldnt answer that question. I'm sure they know what is a tenugui but it seemed they always used the term <men towel>. or maybe they made a joke.....I dont know, but they all looked really surprised when the teacher said it was called tenugui....

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                    • #11
                      I learned that the difference between suriage and harai is the timing and the motion. I use harai to break my opponents center, follow up immediately with a men or kote strike.
                      Suriage is when you swing up your sword a little circular just as the opponents shinai is coming down for the hit, knock it out of the way slightly and, as you have now nicely set up your swing, just hit men/kote. It requires some speed though, and a short fumikome.

                      As far as i understand it, harai is when i take initiative and suriage is a counter technique. Very hard to pull off for me

                      What seems to be generally referred to as "uchiotoshi" we call harii (something like that), the slam on top of the opponents shinai to break his center. I know the term kiriotoshi only from iaido lessons, its the powerful severing strike that ends most "confrontations" or to finish off the opponent(s).

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                      • #12
                        the fact is that all these technique names are just very ordinary Japanese words, so it's not a matter of what they mean, but how they are used conventionally. Yes, kiriotoshi COULD mean the same as uchiotoshi, but in actual usage that's not the case. For example, if you search the forums at ichinikai (which are enormous compared to these ones) for uchiotoshi, you'll get results about techniques where you knock down the opponent's attack before quickly delivering your own (as featured in bokuto ni yoru...). If you search for kiriotoshi, you only get results for a technique where you cut down through your opponent's men attack, derived from itto ryu.
                        Haraiage would indeed normally just be called harai, but I wanted to be specific as you can use harai in a number of directions, and Binni mentioned that the opponent's shinai was knocked up. Here's a post by Hide. that has both haraiage and haraiotoshi mentioned as types of harai waza (as well as others, including makiage and makiotoshi):
                        http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/b...032041864.html
                        menkiriotoshimen:
                        http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/b...330078125.html

                        It doesn't really matter what the words COULD mean if you looked them up in a dictionary, it matters what they mean in the context of kendo.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by samurai999
                          meh... I have never heard harai-age being used in the US where I go to practice. its always Harai-men or kote suriage-men that is said during practice where harai is used to break kamae and suriage is used to break seme of the kote...
                          Tim
                          I don't know what you mean by 'seme of the kote'. If they've initiated an attack, it's suriage. If they haven't, then it's harai. If you're performing it from ura and are not an octopus, then it's almost certain you'll sweep the shinai upwards - strictly speaking this is haraiage.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by samurai999
                            ...I have never heard harai-age being used in the US where I go to practice. its always Harai-men...
                            In my experience, in Britain, harai-men is usually used as an abbreviation of haraiage-men (as per kingofmyrrh's posts), and Otoshi-men is usually said as an abbreviation of haraiotoshi-men.

                            the difference in my understanding between harai-age/otoshi waza, and suriage/uchiotoshi waza is that the latter are Ouji-waza (defensive techniques, executed when the opponent attacks), whereas the previous are techniques used to create suki (i.e. opportunities for a strike, in this case breaking the opponent's 'chushin' or centre).


                            at least that's what I currently understand...

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kingofmyrrh
                              I don't know what you mean by 'seme of the kote'. If they've initiated an attack, it's suriage. If they haven't, then it's harai. If you're performing it from ura and are not an octopus, then it's almost certain you'll sweep the shinai upwards - strictly speaking this is haraiage.
                              Well there is a technique where if they seme kote (ie initiate attack by going after your kote) you can "uchiotoshi" the kote and hit men. Its not an "ageru" move by all means.

                              Tim

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