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  • Katsugi Waza Responses?

    Hi Guys,

    Does anyone have any website that has information on Katsugi Waza (Technique) combinations? After looking through the English Google the few results for 'Katsugi Waza' were pretty much 'Shoulder your Shinai and Strike what is open' period. I was hoping to find something more indepth.

    Since it is a technique of provocation the responses I see happening would be:

    #1 Opponent does not respond and remains steady in Chudan.

    Opponent's Move:

    - None. Opponent remains steady and does not act.

    #2 Opponent flinches, moves himself and/or shinai, or attempts a block from feeling threatened and/or confused. <- These actually encompasses several types of responses, but strictly means the opponent does not attack you.

    Opponent's Move:

    - Adjust distance by stepping either forward, backward, or to the side.

    - Moves Shinai to block what he thinks would be a Men, Kote, Tsuki, or Do strike.

    - Flinches or moves Shinai feeling threatened and/or confused.

    - Opponent feints an attack.

    - A combination of any of the previously mentioned options.

    #3 Opponent attacks right away attempting to strike any openings you provided while transitioning to Katsugi.

    Opponent's Move:

    - Opponent strikes men right away.

    - Opponent strikes Kote right away.

    - Opponent strikes Do right away.

    - Opponent strikes Tsuki right away.

    - Opponent feints a first target then strikes actual target in mind.






    Am I missing something? Those are the possible responses I see happening from a provocation stand point; you moving first into Katsugi and the person responding.

    What would the appropriate strategies/responses for these be?

    Also, while transition to Katsugi from Chudan... does the left Kote become a target? I believe it only becomes if you assume Hasso, but Katsugi does include a small pause in that shouldering position. How long would the pause need to be for the left kote to become a valid target?

  • #2
    I'm curious why you think katsugi waza is provocative. It can be used for kote nuki men but the actual provocation is being done by your seme which causes your opponent to go in for kote in the first place. If you shoulder your shinai and your opponent does nothing, your seme is ineffective. I can't think of any specific advantage of just shouldering the shinai and staying there. You've broken kamae and your tsuki is wide open.

    Similarly, I'm not sure what you mean by "moving first into Katsugi" or "transition to Katsugi from Chudan". It's a waza, not a kamae. That's something like raising the shinai half way to strike men but not actually striking men. You can do it, but what are you hoping to achieve?

    Also, your left kote is hidden during katsugi so whether it is a target or not is irrelevant.
    Last edited by verissimus; 13th April 2015, 09:17 AM.

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    • #3
      Left kote is not a valid target in chudan because of safety measures. It becomes target when its raised from that position.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by verissimus View Post
        I'm curious why you think katsugi waza is provocative. It can be used for kote nuki men but the actual provocation is being done by your seme which causes your opponent to go in for kote in the first place. If you shoulder your shinai and your opponent does nothing, your seme is ineffective. I can't think of any specific advantage of just shouldering the shinai and staying there. You've broken kamae and your tsuki is wide open.

        Similarly, I'm not sure what you mean by "moving first into Katsugi" or "transition to Katsugi from Chudan". It's a waza, not a kamae. That's something like raising the shinai half way to strike men but not actually striking men. You can do it, but what are you hoping to achieve?

        Also, your left kote is hidden during katsugi so whether it is a target or not is irrelevant.
        I thought I had read that word here http://www.kendo-guide.com/katsugi-waza-in-kendo.html but the closes word I could find was 'surprised'. I guess my mind must have added 'provocation' all by itself. My train of thought was that by opening yourself up you are trying to 'provoke' a response from an opponent who is otherwise 'closed' by a proper Chudan.

        I meant moving first as: acting first by utilizing the technique of shouldering your Shinai.

        Your left kote would be hidden if you shoulder it on your left, but I saw a video that said you can also shoulder it on your right side. Can it be safe to say that you can use Katsugi Waza on either right or left shoulder? My question was aimed for right Katsugi Waza.

        Originally posted by krys View Post
        Left kote is not a valid target in chudan because of safety measures. It becomes target when its raised from that position.

        Then I'd guess that while using Katsugi Waza it never becomes a valid target? Even if the Waza includes a short pause in that shouldering position?

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        • #5
          verissimus:
          >Also, your left kote is hidden during katsugi so whether it is a target or not is irrelevant.
          Katsugi can be done from either side.
          Last edited by krys; 13th April 2015, 11:41 AM.

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          • #6
            Sakabato:
            >Then I'd guess that while using Katsugi Waza it never becomes a valid target? Even if the Waza includes a short pause in that shouldering position?
            Pauses are irrelevant. Moving kote to position where it can be safely hit is. So kote is a valid target while you perform katsugi.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by krys View Post
              Sakabato:
              >Then I'd guess that while using Katsugi Waza it never becomes a valid target? Even if the Waza includes a short pause in that shouldering position?
              Pauses are irrelevant. Moving kote to position where it can be safely hit is. So kote is a valid target while you perform katsugi.


              Okay, so moving left Kote to a position where it can be safely hit makes it a valid target? Such as bringing it from left to right side?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Sakabato View Post

                Okay, so moving left Kote to a position where it can be safely hit makes it a valid target? Such as bringing it from left to right side?
                The definition I heard is - it is safe to hit left kote when it has been raised above do mune.
                In my own opinion the situation you describe - when it is not yet above do mune but covers or is in front of the right kote - then it also qualifies as target.

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                • #9
                  More here: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/for...plying-katsugi

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by krys View Post
                    Sakabato: >Then I'd guess that while using Katsugi Waza it never becomes a valid target? Even if the Waza includes a short pause in that shouldering position? Pauses are irrelevant. Moving kote to position where it can be safely hit is. So kote is a valid target while you perform katsugi.
                    No. The rule is that left kote is target when you assume an alternate kamae. If you were to fight from hasso then left kote is target. Katsugi is merely an off-centre backswing. Left kote is no more target there than it is on a centred backswing.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by krys View Post
                      The definition I heard is - it is safe to hit left kote when it has been raised above do mune.
                      That is the old rule, like 30 years old. As I stated previously the current rule is when you take alternate kamae. As to the originsl question, the purpose of katsugi-waza is mostly timing and surprise. You pull it to the shoulder and stall briefly, your opponent says "what the hell is he doing?" and you hit him in that moment. You create a chance with the odd movement and the broken timing created by the pause. You can only use it once in a while; if too often the opponent will just hit men straight up the middle or tag your kote if you pulled left (the common way).

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by verissimus View Post
                        Thank you for that though the only tactic I see mentioned is someone saying take a step back when you do the Waza, and someone else saying if the person goes for Degote you can score. Though I herd from Andy at AJB that degote is the perfect counter for Katsugi.

                        Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill View Post
                        That is the old rule, like 30 years old. As I stated previously the current rule is when you take alternate kamae. As to the originsl question, the purpose of katsugi-waza is mostly timing and surprise. You pull it to the shoulder and stall briefly, your opponent says "what the hell is he doing?" and you hit him in that moment. You create a chance with the odd movement and the broken timing created by the pause. You can only use it once in a while; if too often the opponent will just hit men straight up the middle or tag your kote if you pulled left (the common way).
                        Thank you Neil Sensei. That is a lot of useful information. I still recall the left kote being a valid target in Hasso though I was wondering if during Katsugi's movement it also became valid. It is good to know that it isn't. Thank you very much .

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sakabato View Post
                          I was wondering if during Katsugi's movement it also became valid. It is good to know that it isn't.
                          It is not?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by krys View Post
                            It is not?
                            Nope, see my reply to you a couple posts back.

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                            • #15
                              As Neil points out katsugi is a waza that starts at chudan and not a kamae in and of itself (like hasso is), so left kote is not a legal target.

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