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  • How to deal with "dirty players"?

    I'm posting this in the women's forum cause I think maybe women have a different approach to this, however any input from guys is greatly appreciated as well!

    ok, so I'm having trouble dealing with people who, by my own definition "play dirty". By that I mean, people who hurt or even injure you in shiai on purpose so they get an advantage.

    In my short time in kendo I have come across several individuals who make no secret of that being their "tactics" and eventhough my pain threshold has gotten pretty high through kendo it's starting to really get to me.

    As an example, these kind of people will repeatedly hit your elbow (like going for do eventhough there's no opening), I've been hit on the upper legs many times (??!) and even on my upper arm. I'm not talking about beginner's mistakes or the occasional misplaced strike. All the people in question have done kendo for many years and you can tell that in kakarigeiko for example every strike is placed perfectly so it's not like they don't know what they're doing. When confronted I was even told that the whole purpose is to injure or hurt your opponent so they lose concentration.

    I know people like that will always exist and I'll just have to deal with that and try to just do my own kendo. My main issue isn't the pain actually, I can take a lot. My big problem is that I get angry. I get really pissed off and that in return makes me totally lose control over my kendo. My footwork get's sloppy, my tenouchi dissapears and my mind is totally unfocused. I try to be all zen-like and not let it get to me, but it's really starting to become a problem. I hate injustice, and in my mind they're not doing "proper kendo" (feel free to discuss this as well, maybe I can learn a bit more about why those individuals do their kendo in this way)

    I know I'm still a noob when it comes to kendo so maybe over the years it'll go away by itself and it's easier to deal with, but in the meantime, does anyone, women in particular, have advice for me about how to deal with situations like that?

    I don't want to avoid shiai with these people, I love all shiai, I simply want to get to a point in my mind where I can be unaffected by what they're doing and just do my own kendo.

  • #2
    if those people do DO on you to hurt you , do DO KAESHI MEN to score agaisnt them , etc etc .

    You have to make proper Kendo stand over anything else . =)

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    • #3
      While that situation is a pretty nasty one. I realy dont see how someone, who is trying to hurt his/her opponenet, could defeat someone who is only trying to score a point. Because as they are trying to do something dirty, they are not focused on a real scoring attack or real defensive tactic, so they should, theoreticaly be at a big disadvantage. Their logic is all messed up.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ahmed61086 View Post
        While that situation is a pretty nasty one. I realy dont see how someone, who is trying to hurt his/her opponenet, could defeat someone who is only trying to score a point. Because as they are trying to do something dirty, they are not focused on a real scoring attack or real defensive tactic, so they should, theoreticaly be at a big disadvantage. Their logic is all messed up.
        Maybe you're right, but if the skill level is so very different (mine being low ) they still have enough time to "harai-waza" into my thigh and go for men while I haven't even moved my right foot yet.

        I also get quite a few random hits on my thumb joints which, after repeated hitting, hurts so much I can't hold the shinai properly so I have less control. (btw, my nice leather tsuba dome is also totally mangled )

        Yes, I think this "tactic" won't work on anyone who is their own level cause they're basically wasting time striking to hurt instead to score.

        You know, I also get mad at myself for the fact I can't handle people like that. I wish I was fast enough to strike them before they even start all that hanky-panky, but I'm working on that. It's not happening from one day to the next, though so I'm still stuck with this problem of not being able to let go.

        I want to go all "Blade Braver" on their asses, "For Justice"! ^_^ But whereas normally in shiai/shiai-geiko I've more and more found this peace of mind that helps you feel your kendo better, in these kind of matches, I just can't seem to let go :3

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Raindrop View Post
          As an example, these kind of people will repeatedly hit your elbow (like going for do eventhough there's no opening)
          I have blocked many a good and accurate do strike with my elbow (just instinctive to move my arms down when a do cut is en-route) but that doesn't mean you're as stupid as me.

          Tragically my advice probably won't sit well amongst the serious budoka of KW.

          If this happened to me and I was unhapy about it (and to be honest, I enjoy the rougher elements of kendo as I am padded enough to take it), I would try and maintain good kendo in the dojo (or on the shiaijo, whatever) but have a subtle word afterwards - and if no joy then pin them up the changing room wall by their throat.

          I don't handle bullies well. Let's see how they like it.

          Comment


          • #6
            lots of tsuki!

            Comment


            • #7
              If it's intentional then it's pretty poor behaviour IMO. If it gets too serious, my suggestion would be to (politely) decline to practice with them when they come up in the jigeiko rotation. If necessary, a quiet word with sensei/sempai afterwards giving your reasons.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Raindrop View Post
                Maybe you're right, but if the skill level is so very different (mine being low ) they still have enough time to "harai-waza" into my thigh and go for men while I haven't even moved my right foot yet.

                I also get quite a few random hits on my thumb joints which, after repeated hitting, hurts so much I can't hold the shinai properly so I have less control. (btw, my nice leather tsuba dome is also totally mangled )

                Yes, I think this "tactic" won't work on anyone who is their own level cause they're basically wasting time striking to hurt instead to score.

                You know, I also get mad at myself for the fact I can't handle people like that. I wish I was fast enough to strike them before they even start all that hanky-panky, but I'm working on that. It's not happening from one day to the next, though so I'm still stuck with this problem of not being able to let go.

                I want to go all "Blade Braver" on their asses, "For Justice"! ^_^ But whereas normally in shiai/shiai-geiko I've more and more found this peace of mind that helps you feel your kendo better, in these kind of matches, I just can't seem to let go :3
                Just go all out, MiyaMiya style

                Just thinking out loud, if there level is really that much higher then yours, why would they need to resort to those kind of tricks/tactics? They would probably score anyway.
                Also I often get weird or difficult techniques tried on me, because I'm a great practice target, I'm like a sitting duck out there (they have plenty of time to execute a technique). So maybe this could also be a reason of their inaccuracy.
                Last edited by ArcticBlizzard; 15th October 2009, 06:56 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  She's talking about shiai not keiko I think. The tactic is used by people who otherwise are not able to score and decide to intimidate the opponent into submission. Me I come from a family with roots in show business. If it was really really bad I might prime the shinpan to be aware of it by falling to the floor and writhing in pain.. oh wait, that might not involve acting.

                  Intentional strikes that are not in correct and valid targets, when repeated can and should earn hansoku. The problem as shinpan is always gauging intent...especially at the lower levels of competition where control and accuracy may just be lacking.



                  We had a guy like that in our dojo that did that for jigeiko. After a strike he'd go into tsuba zeria with a knee up carefully placed to ram us males in the gonads. I solved that problem within a single jigeiko with him. Every time he came in I choked up on my shinai with my left and careully placed it so that his thigh would run into it when he executed his 'tokui waza' [specialty technique]. After a couple of times ramming his thigh into my tsuka gashira, he stopped doing this. This is not a tactic I'd recommend for shiai. But in the dojo, under the right circumstances, pain can be a great motivator for learning.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ArcticBlizzard View Post
                    Just go all out, MiyaMiya style
                    BLACK! lol xD

                    Originally posted by ArcticBlizzard View Post
                    Just thinking out loud, if there level is really that much higher then yours, why would they need to resort to those kind of tricks/tactics? They would probably score anyway.
                    yep, that's what I'm wondering, but in the end it's really about me and how I deal with that. And you know ultimately the dojo situation can be solved, but in a national taikai I will still meet people like that in the shiaijo so I still want to know how to handle this.

                    I know I still lack lots of experience when it comes to shiai (I think I've been in national 3 taikai altogether) but maybe someone has some tips on how to approach this on a mental level. Btw my female sempai feel the exact same way about this as me. We talk about it a lot and just end up getting collectively angry, so that's basically why I'm now asking on KW.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I had a loser do that in shiai once. He went straight for my bicep. I was in chudan and there was no opening whatsoever. Hurt like hell. The next time he did men, I stepped aside, let him follow through, and hit him with tai atari as hard as I could knocking him out of bounds.

                      the guy was wearing one of those cheap raw hide rimmed mens (that no one outside of a high school gym class should be wearing), and testing for his 3day. He should have known better.

                      One thing I can see though is that you are not holding your shinai correctly if your thumbs are getting hit regularly. It is a common problem, even up through shodan kendo-ka. Have someone (sensei/senpai) take a look at the way you hold your shinai, and try to improve your grip. I say that is probably the root of sore thumbs because you mentioned your tsuba was all beat up. That only comes from bad form.

                      And that is not just the grip either. Have them evaluate the whole swing, from chudan all the way through suburi. It is much harder to explain in writing, but many people have likened it to wringing out a towel. Holding it lightly then a snapping/gripping motion like you are wringing water out of it, ending with your thumbs pointing toward the floor.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I just try to do my own kendo as correctly as possible. It sounds stupid, but it's all I can really do, especially at my level.

                        The kids often unintentionally repeatedly hit me on the arms/elbow in shiai-geiko because they're trying to find/make openings where there really aren't any. I don't get mad and I don't go nuts on them, I just keep doing my own kendo. I think that that's something the shinpan will recognize and appreciate. It won't make you feel much better physically, but... yeah.

                        The other thing is, if it's actual shiai and you continue doing correct kendo while they hit your elbows/arms, then that would help increase the contrast and hopefully the shinpan would call them on it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If their plan is

                          Originally posted by Raindrop View Post
                          the whole purpose is to injure or hurt your opponent so they lose concentration.
                          And you

                          Originally posted by Raindrop View Post
                          get really pissed off and that in return makes me totally lose control over my kendo.
                          Then you're doing exactly what they want and as you've confronted them with it they now know it's having an effect on you. Cultivating that 'zen-like' state is clearly you're best option. I'd also get an elbow pad, that's the target that can become the most annoying. Slaps to the leg and arm can be shrugged off but a crack right on the elbow can really break the concentration.

                          Good luck with it, I think you already know how to rise above this form of dirty play, just keeping working at it.

                          Originally posted by Pizzamancer View Post
                          the guy was wearing one of those cheap raw hide rimmed mens (that no one outside of a high school gym class should be wearing.
                          HEY! Cheap shot. Some of us have no option but to practice with what we've got. It may not be pretty, mine may not even fit correctly but it allows me to take part [although my body doesn't at the moment, so diss that all you want].

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Raindrop View Post
                            I'm posting this in the women's forum cause I think maybe women have a different approach to this, however any input from guys is greatly appreciated as well!

                            ok, so I'm having trouble dealing with people who, by my own definition "play dirty". By that I mean, people who hurt or even injure you in shiai on purpose so they get an advantage.

                            In my short time in kendo I have come across several individuals who make no secret of that being their "tactics" and eventhough my pain threshold has gotten pretty high through kendo it's starting to really get to me.

                            As an example, these kind of people will repeatedly hit your elbow (like going for do eventhough there's no opening), I've been hit on the upper legs many times (??!) and even on my upper arm. I'm not talking about beginner's mistakes or the occasional misplaced strike. All the people in question have done kendo for many years and you can tell that in kakarigeiko for example every strike is placed perfectly so it's not like they don't know what they're doing. When confronted I was even told that the whole purpose is to injure or hurt your opponent so they lose concentration.

                            I know people like that will always exist and I'll just have to deal with that and try to just do my own kendo. My main issue isn't the pain actually, I can take a lot. My big problem is that I get angry. I get really pissed off and that in return makes me totally lose control over my kendo. My footwork get's sloppy, my tenouchi dissapears and my mind is totally unfocused. I try to be all zen-like and not let it get to me, but it's really starting to become a problem. I hate injustice, and in my mind they're not doing "proper kendo" (feel free to discuss this as well, maybe I can learn a bit more about why those individuals do their kendo in this way)

                            I know I'm still a noob when it comes to kendo so maybe over the years it'll go away by itself and it's easier to deal with, but in the meantime, does anyone, women in particular, have advice for me about how to deal with situations like that?

                            I don't want to avoid shiai with these people, I love all shiai, I simply want to get to a point in my mind where I can be unaffected by what they're doing and just do my own kendo.
                            I haven't got time to read all the posts (lunch break at work) so apploges if this is already mentioned or unsporting.
                            In my other sports nd martial arts, I've had similar tatics used against me. Fencing was a classic - being hit hard to collar bone, inside of elbow, soft area near the hip and knee in that order by the same few people each time. It is horrible and I regard the individuals doing it as bullies. To me it also means, that they don't trust their own techniques to score in their own right and don't want to loose to a beginner, so they try to make themselves look good.

                            Personally, I found a few well placed hard hits back soon sorted the problem. I'll let you decide where to hit. Once they get the idea, never hit them like again (unless they restart at some future date).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Raindrop View Post
                              ... I simply want to get to a point in my mind where I can be unaffected by what they're doing and just do my own kendo.
                              *plonk* huh? *plonk*plonk*
                              http://www.titus.de/binary,325965,.jpg

                              There's others around - need to find a pair that fits well and doesn't hinder your Kendo.

                              (funny enough it's usually the worst elbow-do hitters who wear that stuff themselves)

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