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Muso Shinden Ryu Kumitachi Forms

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  • J. Pombo
    started a topic Muso Shinden Ryu Kumitachi Forms

    Muso Shinden Ryu Kumitachi Forms

    Good evening,

    I felt curious about the kenjutsu curriculum in MSR so I journeyed through the internet to find out more, since until very recently I only knew about the Tachi Uchi No Kurai group of forms, and their respective names. I found out that there are another 6 groups of forms in addition to TUNK, but so far I've only managed to find out the names of the groups (Kurai Tori; Tsumeai No Kurai; Daisho Tsume; Daisho Tachi Tsume; Tsume No Kurai; Daikendori) and the names of the Tsumeai No Kurai forms. Hence I ask, is there anyone out there who may have further knowledge on Kumitachi, or know any reliable sources on this? Also, kindly tell me if the names I stated here are correct/acceptable or not, since some of them I learned from shady websites. The rest I learned from Wikipedia, and I've read in these forums that Wiki may have incorrect data aswell.

    Best regards,
    JPombo

  • chidokan
    replied
    Bill,
    If you cast your mind back, I have already shown you one of the kodachi set. The tsumeai set is quite interesting, especially the way the throw can be applied and followed up. Enjoy....

    Leave a comment:


  • still learning
    replied
    Scott;
    Hopefully 'they' will select a younger, fitter and more flexible [expendable?] ''dummy''........

    Leave a comment:


  • ScottUK
    replied
    Originally posted by still learning View Post
    Also; will be learning, broadly, Tsumiai no Kurai for the first time....
    You better look forward to being introduced to the dojo floor...

    Leave a comment:


  • still learning
    replied
    Originally posted by chidokan View Post
    Bill has seen what Neil and I do, and can pass comments on what he does compared to us. His appears more 'gentlemanly'/ careful, and perhaps closer to Oe sensei's seven 'beginner' set as a general observation.... All ours are done from a deep iaigoshi (ie one head height drop from the start) rather than say a high 'kendo' stance, as one observation. (although maybe that's just Bill's kendo influence peeking through!)
    I agree with the 'gentlemanly-ness' of what we do in comparison to Tim & Neil's practices.
    Theirs are much more aggressive/strong and are more 'kurai-ish' than 'kata-ish'...?? As I understand it - Oe sensei took much of the strength/aggression out of the set in consideration of Health and Safety [of the learners].

    As for 'uprightness'; it may well be my Kendo Kata/Bokuto Kihon having an influence...... but, as I recall, I am re-creating that which was taught.
    We will find out soon as I will be practising with my original instructor ....
    Also; will be learning, broadly, Tsumiai no Kurai for the first time....

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrei Arefiev
    replied
    Originally posted by Gishin View Post
    I suspect Haruna sensei was talking about Masoka Kazumi. He published a book back in the days that had all the old waza including punches, knee to the opponent etc etc. Did he reconstruct those waza or did he learn them from Oe sensei I have no idea but this is in the book the he wrote quite hard to get but the most complete one I saw.
    A (not such a long) while ago "Kendo Nippon" published a series of 6 articles about iaido kumitachi. I've given them to a translator who has translated the first 1.5 or 2.5 of them into Russian. I'll check them to be more sure, but the first part, as I recall it, quote Masaoka-sensei's book and cites the fact that he reconstructed most of the paired kata. Another part of the series speaks about Mitani-sensei (son of Mitani-sensei) teaching some of these kata (don't know which) to his students.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gishin
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter West View Post
    I spoke to Haruna Sensei back in 1998/9 about this in the MJER school. He was of the opinion that no-one has kept these alive. He said he thought that some people had tried to reconstruct them, but that their existence by direct transmission was lost.

    It was his opinion, based on a lot of knowledge, to be sure. He believed that in the ZNIR even Tachi uchi and Tsumiai are not practiced, even by the then headmaster Fukui soke. He mentioned Iwata Sensei still working with TUNK and TNK. Mitani Sensei's book (which at that time I'd not seen, but now have a copy) shows only TUNK and TNK. Whether this is all correct I don't know. I don't know of anyone who knows them and teaches them openly.
    I suspect Haruna sensei was talking about Masoka Kazumi. He published a book back in the days that had all the old waza including punches, knee to the opponent etc etc. Did he reconstruct those waza or did he learn them from Oe sensei I have no idea but this is in the book the he wrote quite hard to get but the most complete one I saw.

    Leave a comment:


  • chidokan
    replied
    I have seen all the waza practised and taken part in the first two sets on a previous trip in Kochi. They are 'alive and kicking', but as I said limited to a few of the senior students I met. Bearing in mind they practise these with shinken, I can see their point in not teaching beginners these waza....

    Bill has seen what Neil and I do, and can pass comments on what he does compared to us. His appears more 'gentlemanly'/ careful, and perhaps closer to Oe sensei's seven 'beginner' set as a general observation.... All ours are done from a deep iaigoshi (ie one head height drop from the start) rather than say a high 'kendo' stance, as one observation. (although maybe that's just Bill's kendo influence peeking through!)

    Personally I think it more important to see how these can be taken and used back into earlier waza. There are some interesting points from tsume ai no kurai that reflect directly back to mae, for instance...however it all depends on how you practise iai in general and how you examine all the waza from a broader viewpoint. Some in depth knowledge is necessary before you can do this, so again, something to avoid as a beginner. One should remember the quest to collect waza is secondary to being good at the basics.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oroshi
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter West View Post
    I spoke to Haruna Sensei back in 1998/9 about this in the MJER school. He was of the opinion that no-one has kept these alive. He said he thought that some people had tried to reconstruct them, but that their existence by direct transmission was lost.

    It was his opinion, based on a lot of knowledge, to be sure. He believed that in the ZNIR even Tachi uchi and Tsumiai are not practiced, even by the then headmaster Fukui soke. He mentioned Iwata Sensei still working with TUNK and TNK. Mitani Sensei's book (which at that time I'd not seen, but now have a copy) shows only TUNK and TNK. Whether this is all correct I don't know. I don't know of anyone who knows them and teaches them openly.
    There are definitely Eishin-ryu groups practising sets of kata called "Daishozume," "Daishotachizume" and "Daikendori" in Japan today. However I can't say whether these kata have been directly transmitted or whether they are reconstructions from densho.

    I know (from my reading) that Mitani sensei practised and even publically displayed Daishozume, Daishotachizume and Daikendori. However like I said I don't know whether these were directly transmitted or recreated by students of Oe sensei (as Mitani sensei learned from Oe, and later Oe's senior students, I presume the kata came from one of the two). I believe Mitani sensei passed these kata onto his students. I have also heard of other branches of Eishin ryu practising these sets. I understand that these kata have a strong focus on grappling, but I must stress this is just hearsay.

    I should point out that I personally haven't practised more than tachi uchi no kurai and a tiny amount of tsume ai no kurai, so I really don't know much about the kata.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter West
    replied
    Originally posted by Wraith View Post
    Has anyone practiced Daishō Zume, Daishō Tachi Zume and Daikendori ? I'm intrested in getting a little information in this area
    I spoke to Haruna Sensei back in 1998/9 about this in the MJER school. He was of the opinion that no-one has kept these alive. He said he thought that some people had tried to reconstruct them, but that their existence by direct transmission was lost.

    It was his opinion, based on a lot of knowledge, to be sure. He believed that in the ZNIR even Tachi uchi and Tsumiai are not practiced, even by the then headmaster Fukui soke. He mentioned Iwata Sensei still working with TUNK and TNK. Mitani Sensei's book (which at that time I'd not seen, but now have a copy) shows only TUNK and TNK. Whether this is all correct I don't know. I don't know of anyone who knows them and teaches them openly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wraith
    replied
    Has anyone practiced Daishō Zume, Daishō Tachi Zume and Daikendori ? I'm intrested in getting a little information in this area

    Leave a comment:


  • still learning
    replied
    Originally posted by ScottUK View Post
    ...... my Tsumiai/Tsumeai(?) no Kurai is pretty rough. Need more keiko!
    Come to Darlington [UK] in October......... Tachi Uchi & Tsumiai........

    Oh! Wait!
    You have already committed to the event........

    Others will be welcomed.

    Leave a comment:


  • chidokan
    replied
    As MSR is based on MJER, there is no reason for them not to be present in the 'list of waza' you learn. Note it is recommended that these are taught to 5th dan MJER and above by Iwata sensei (ZNKR), and Oe sensei's 7 tachi uchi no kata for lower MJER grades...it is likely a similar 'rule of thumb' would apply for MSR if their senior sensei have a similar opinion to him.
    If you haven't been introduced to them, your sensei will have a good reason for not showing you.
    To be honest I have conflicting views on this...

    I think it a good idea for people to be aware of what they are, and know the shape. This is because the more difficult senior MJER stuff has been lost due to it not being taught, however is it worth saving the shape alone???

    It is also good to have something to look forward to learning at a later date, and learn the waza you do know to a high level before trying something new...it makes the new techniques easier to learn with good basics...

    Leave a comment:


  • Fukuryu
    replied
    Keeping with what Scott suggested, in this thread in e-Budo, while not strictly related with the question posted here, some of the kumitachi sets are mentioned together with the context on when and how were taught. One of them is Zume no kurai as kumitachi kaewaza.

    Leave a comment:


  • ScottUK
    replied
    Wikipedia is a great staring point, but not always correct.

    Best to wait for opinons on here - or ask at E-Budo.

    Leave a comment:

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