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  • ZNKR iai timing question

    Where do people have their right foot at the moment the kissaki clears the koiguchi in seitei Mae? Is it already out and planted, or is it still in motion planting before the sword contacts tekki?

    The question of how others do it came up at training yesterday since one of our lads just came back from the UK and seems to have had the timing of the foot changed, aiming at completing its movement earlier.

    I was wondering if this is a doctrinal difference since we are not MJER or MSR so filter the book through different lenses sometimes - or is it just that have I missed something in the book that defines this (usually the case).

  • #2
    The ZNKR book does not explain timing, so neither can be stated as right or wrong in this sense. However, the movement should work as budo and demonstrate ki ken tai ichi. This gives a clue to the timing, as it is Kendo Renmei iaido, and therefore links with the concept of ki ken tai ichi as expressed in kendo. Many people put too much effort into the sword and not enough into the body, thus throwing the sword out as fast as possible (even if the draw has Johakyu) and hoping the body will somehow catch up. With practice this generally results in the foot landing as the sword stops at the end of the cut.

    Ki ken tai ichi as expressed in ZNKR kendo has the foot landing just as, or marginally before, the sword hits the target.

    Landing the foot as the kissaki leaves the koikuchi (Saya banare) is clearly too early as this commits to distance too early and reduces the forward pressure of the body before the sword cuts.

    Comment


    • #3
      ...ahhhh, erm....

      This is the key to the correct distance. The very moment that the sword hits them, the right foot should plant. If not then you wouldn't be able to deliver the downward cut with the monouchi. Ideally this means that as the weight goes onto the left foot (the very moment that this allows the right foot to move forwards) the kissaki should be at the hair trigger point of the koiguchi. In the time it takes for the right foot to drive forwards, the kissaki races forwards so that both right foot and monouchi arrive at their objective positions at roughly (i.e. within 0.005 of a second) the same time.

      The problem that most people have is that they put their hands on the sword during the period that the weight is transferred onto the left foot. This is far too late. The hands should go on the sword AS the left foot is going forwards and the draw should be more or less completed once the weight has been loaded onto the left foot.

      A powerpoint presentation can be provided on request...

      Comment


      • #4
        is the "ahhh, erm..." an introduction to contradicting/disagreeing with me? As I read what you write, I think it explains exactly the same thing in different terms. We are in agreement.

        Comment


        • #5
          Ahhh - thanks gentlemen - I think its a misunderstanding by the student about what he was being adjusted for - "The very moment that the sword hits them, the right foot should plant."[Andy] is what we teach, we actually use kendo ki-ken-tai-ichi [Peter] as a teaching tool to try and help people internalise (since we are a kendo dojo even if most of the iai members these days dont do kendo) the concept.

          I admit I was puzzled last Sunday but didnt want to jump to any premature conclusions since some things are different in our expression of what I think of as the "not in book" parts of seitei to other dojo we deal with (whose koryu are either Suio or Eishin) and as a sandan, have to be very aware of the limits of my technical knowlege / understanding when trying to work with someone whose own next test is sandan and who has had easily twice the amount of instruction under sensei in the last couple of years than myself.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Aden

            It is quite likely that the timing of the student in question was slightly late and his instruction in the UK was a learning tool specific to him/her to attempt to correct this rather than a different specific "text book methodology". My method of doing and instructing, is to make sure the sword is fully extended by the time you have risen to the balls of your feet, so the sayabiki merely releases the sword for the cut. THe right foot planting and cut timing is a fast 'b-bump' if that makes sense? b(foot)-bump(cut) - this is not a term it is just a way of writing or vocalising the timing - it is almost the same time.

            In any case, we do what Peter and Andy have described.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Andy_Watson View Post
              ...ahhhh, erm....

              This is the key to the correct distance. The very moment that the sword hits them, the right foot should plant....
              So, what's the scenario in this take on MSR Shohatto? Tsugane sensei is one of the visiting instructors to the AUSKF Iaido Camp.

              http://www.geocities.jp/iaido5145/mov.html

              Thanks!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DCPan View Post
                So, what's the scenario in this take on MSR Shohatto? Tsugane sensei is one of the visiting instructors to the AUSKF Iaido Camp.

                http://www.geocities.jp/iaido5145/mov.html

                Thanks!
                The scenario/maai is different between MSR Shohatto and MJER Mae. In Shohatto, the nukitsuke just barely grazes the opponent or misses the opponent entirely because they dodge backward, that's why you move forward quite considerably during furikaburi and why there is that tsugi-ashi motion (the back knee moving forward) during kirioroshi. In MJER Mae, the maai is closer, therefore there is much less movement forward.

                When to plant the foot and what constitutes ki-ken-tai can change depending on your level, same as with seitei No. 4, tsuka-ate. If you do tsuka-ate with fumikomi, then the strike with the tsuka-gashira is synchronized with the fumikomi. However, if you do it without fumikomi, your foot will plant a fraction of the second before the strike. Remember, the principle is ki-ken-tai, not ki-ken-ashi.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Halcyon View Post
                  When to plant the foot and what constitutes ki-ken-tai can change depending on your level, same as with seitei No. 4, tsuka-ate. If you do tsuka-ate with fumikomi, then the strike with the tsuka-gashira is synchronized with the fumikomi. However, if you do it without fumikomi, your foot will plant a fraction of the second before the strike. Remember, the principle is ki-ken-tai, not ki-ken-ashi.
                  This is perhaps the best way to put it I've ever heard/read so far. Will take it to heart and share with my fellow students.
                  Thanks a lot for the brilliant insight, Halcyon.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    watching both Oshita Sensei and Morita Sensei recently, both had their leading foot in place a fraction before the cut made contact with the opponent. Oshita Sensei explained that the foot is planting itself as the cut is made but it must be in place to do this.

                    This, i think, concurs with both Andy's and Peter's views.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      watching both Oshita Sensei and Morita Sensei recently, both had their leading foot in place a fraction before the cut made contact with the opponent. Oshita Sensei explained that the foot is planting itself as the cut is made but it must be in place to do this.

                      This, i think, concurs with both Andy's and Peter's views.
                      I watched to Tora no maki magazines and the hanshi senseis do it same.

                      Comment

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