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  • ZNIR Toho

    This has been alluded to in a previous post but its way is getting lost so I thought I would start afresh to get the replies I need to understand this.

    In the previous post I asked about the relationship between the Iaido Toho and Seitei and whether the Toho was a forerunner to the Seiteigata.

    The replies came that this is not the case and that the Toho was developed by the ZNIR whilst the ZNKR put together its own set of Kata -Seitei.

    It was also noted that there are 16 members of ZNKR ( actual which Ryus are members is unclear) but it seemed to come across that the ZNIR and ZNKR are made up from different members - hence why we have two different sets that are practiced by 'all'.

    This does not yet make sense, my understanding of the Toho is that there are five kata with each one coming from a different school.

    Maegiri - Esihin Ryu
    Zengogiri - Mugai Ryu
    Kiriage - Shindo Munen Ryu
    Shihogiri - Sui-o Ryo
    Kissaki Gaeshi - Hoki Ryu

    Clearly some of these Ryu are part of ZNKR.

    Are some Ryu part of both ZNIR and ZNKR?
    Why did they proffer a kata to the Toho and then? adopt Seitei?
    Why did the Toho not expand to include kata from other Ryu to become an alternative to Seitei?
    As you can seeeI am confused about this whole thing.
    All advice welcomed

    Lee

  • #2
    you are making the fundamental mistake.... trying to understand Japanese MA politics. You have no chance in working this one out...especially when I tell you that MJER is led by a member of the ZNIR. All acknowledge the soke as this person no matter the association. Whether or not you like his iaido 'style' is irrelevant, he is the boss. He happens to be a member of ZNIR, which is a bit weird, as most groups will not allow 'grades' given by people other than themselves. Obviously being soke is the exception to the rule... The original dojo in Kochi has members of both ZNIR, ZNKR and some non affiliated people who just train at that dojo.Outside of this is Roshukai Japan, who are a group who do MJER regardless of association. Most MJER people visit this group either openly or 'undercover', I have met some really high ranking people who for some reason think they would be in trouble if caught training here. This I think is more to do with the fact they are hachidan in, say, MSR, and may lower their own reputation if found out...
    There are at least five different versions I have seen, depending on local training area, ie Tokyo/Kyoto(2!)/Kochi, and random versions both here in the UK and the USA. Kyoto taikai shows how many different ways you can do MJER.... and there are more if you look around that weekend at the ZNIR taikai..
    ZNIR does have its own set of 11 training kata for grades as well as the ZNKR ones you already know.
    If Charles Mahan will answer this one, he has additional MJER waza you will not do as you follow a different line of teaching (from soke's as mentioned above)
    Problem is over in the UK we have a very blinkered view of what we can do if we go to Japan. There is more to iai than seitei, MSR, or MJER, as you may know. Hyaku, and recently Alex from Leeds, have both gone over and found very different ryu. Another guy who writes on here and does MJER (and has trained with both of us...) has been accepted into the Kashima school.
    ask the boss for a grand and get yourself over. Make sure to go with an open mind...and be prepaared to be gobsmacked by some of the stuff you see....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by chidokan
      ...especially when I tell you that MJER is led by a member of the ZNIR.
      He's not only a member, he's the president.

      Originally posted by chidokan
      ZNIR does have its own set of 11 training kata for grades as well as the ZNKR ones you already know.
      Um, not sure which ones you're talking about here. As far as I'm aware, the only ZNIR kata used for gradings in the ZNIR are the Toho kata.

      Originally posted by chidokan
      If Charles Mahan will answer this one, he has additional MJER waza you will not do as you follow a different line of teaching (from soke's as mentioned above).
      Hopefully Charles (as my respected sempai) will forgive me for jumping in on this first, but you would be referring to the Batto-Ho set of waza from the Seitokai branch of MJER. This set was created by the 20th Soke Kono Hyakuren in the 30's. It is a set of standing waza that, as far as I know, is used as a "shoden level" tachi waza set. The first waza in the set is basically a standing version of Mae. But, as I'm sure Charles knows more about this than I do, I'll pass to him.

      FWIW

      Comment


      • #4
        I often make a mistake on this grading set for ZNIR... this is down to Tose sensei showing me a set from ZNIR (which I naturally assumed was the grading set) about 15 years ago... and it aint...its Toho AND some waza from the original techniques as taught to the Japanese army. As I don't practise them its hardly surprising I forgot... I have finally found my notes on these as I have been wondering for some time what and where they were. I've looked up the names of the waza to put my mind at rest (bear in mind Tose sensei spoke NO english at all at that time...) It also turns out he showed me some tachi uchi no kurai, some of which I remembered, some not, however looking at my notes they reflect what I do now, so no wonder they seemed familiar when I started them again a few years ago!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by chidokan
          I often make a mistake on this grading set for ZNIR...
          Hey, association waza are association waza, it's not like I know anything about the ZNKR Seitei set.

          Hell, I wish I knew half the things that you and some of the other people on this forum knew, I'm still filling in a lot of holes...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by chidokan
            You have no chance in working this one out...especially when I tell you that MJER is led by a member of the ZNIR. All acknowledge the soke as this person no matter the association.
            Not only is he a member of Iaido Club for men, he's the president. Sorry to those who don't catch the reference, it's an American tv commercial reference. Ikeda-soke(22nd) is in fact the president of the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei as was Fukui-soke(21st) before him.


            ZNIR does have its own set of 11 training kata for grades as well as the ZNKR ones you already know. If Charles Mahan will answer this one, he has additional MJER waza you will not do as you follow a different line of teaching (from soke's as mentioned above)
            Hmm... The ZNIR only has one set of it's own, and that is the Toho set of 5 waza. That's the only set done by all ZNIR members regardless of ryuha. Ikeda-soke's line of MJER, frequently referred to as the MJER Seitokai, has one set that is not done by all of the other lines as it is relatively new, circa WWII. That set is today known as Batto Ho no Bu and is divided into two sub sets, a basic set of 7, and a more advanced set of 4. I think these are the 11 you are referring to Tim. They are MJER only waza and not practiced by the other, non MJER members of the ZNIR. And to be clear, the Seitei Kata have no place in the ZNIR. They belong to the ZNKR a completely different organization. Not that a great many ZNIR members don't know Seitei. There are a lot of former, and current, kendo players in the ZNIR that are or were at one time ZNKR members as well. It's an ugly mess. Just go with it

            These 11 waza were created by Kono Hyakuren prior to WWII and were taught at the Naval Academy(This I'm not certain of. Not enough sleep and no real desire to hunt it down tonight). Kono Hyakuren eventually became the 20th soke and at some point his waza were formally incorporated into MJER. Some of the other lines broke with our line at some point before this and so do not practice these waza. While the waza are new, the kihon they embody would be pretty familiar to members of other lines of MJER. There's not really anything new contained within them. Just a new way, and perhaps a more basic way, of introducing concepts already found in Tate Hiza, Oku Tachi Waza, Seiza, and Iwaza.

            Is that what you were looking for Tim?
            Last edited by Charles Mahan; 20th December 2005, 03:55 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Ok I bothered to look it up, but missed the edit window. The 11 waza were created to teach Navy officers the basics of swordsmanship. They were originally called the Dai Nippon Batto-ho. They later became known as two related sets. Batto Ho is the name of the 7 basic waza, and Oku Iai is the name of the 4 more advanced waza.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Charles Mahan
                Not only is he a member of Iaido Club for men, he's the president. Sorry to those who don't catch the reference, it's an American tv commercial reference.
                Hey, I was trying to make that joke, too...

                Yeah, the source I have says that the Batto-Ho set was created in 1939 by Kono Hyakuren at a request from the Dainihon Butokukai. One would assume it had a military purpose...

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                • #9
                  so I CAN translate my notes after all! hooray!

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                  • #10
                    Hmmm, why is it when one seeks clarification one only gets more confused.

                    Are ZNKR Ryu also ZNIR Ryu?
                    Is there any attempt in Japan to sort this all out?
                    If not; why not ?

                    Us Yorkshire lads like this nice and neat

                    Lee

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Why is this so hard to understand?

                      The ZNIR is one organization fairly well dominated in terms of the number of students by the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Seitokai. It's president is Ikeda Takashi who also happens to be the Soke of MJER. There are several other ryu which have members that are part of the ZNIR. Amoung the ryu with ZNIR members are Mugai Ryu, Suio Ryu, Araki Ryu, Shindo Munen Ryu, Muso Shinden Ryu, Hoki ryu, and a few others I can't pull out of my head at the moment. Some of these styles are splintered like Mugai Ryu or are very small. MJER makes up something like 80% of the ZNIR from what I understand.

                      The ZNKR primarily revolves around Kendo, but also has an Iaido branch. The Iaido branch of the ZNKR has it's own set of kata, the main goal of which is to pull kendo players into koryu JSA. This organization is seperate from the ZNIR in every way. They share no events, no officers, no organizational structure, ranks, certificates, etc.

                      Now if you want to know about exactly wich Ryuha is associated with which organization, you really need to ask them. Some will be members of one, some the other, some neither but might have some students in one or the other Renmei. Some Ryuha aren't a part of either.

                      They are seperate organizations with some crossover amoungst their members. Why should that cause so much consternation?
                      Last edited by Charles Mahan; 22nd December 2005, 05:11 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for this Charles,

                        but your tetchiness showed through there. No actual consternation just trying to understand what has gone on before I started to practice Iai. History is not a bad thing you know. And the quest for knowledge and understanding is very very definitely a good thing.

                        I think you should also be aware that all things are "hard to understand" until someone explains them in way that makes the thing understood.

                        Ah, what are those virtues again - patience, humility......

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My tetchiness is showing! Ack I thought I checked my fly before logging on. Doh!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Where would be without a sense of humour.

                            Good question for an essay. Did samurai have a sense of humour.

                            Hmmm.

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                            • #15
                              it could be a short essay...

                              no.

                              or

                              yes...they had a lot of undertaker type jokes.

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