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  • Scotts Question?

    In another thread ScottUk asked if anyone knew the names of the original Sensei who devised Seitei (and their Ryu if possible).

    He asked for the original 12 Ryu and I noted that I had read that it may have been 16.

    So please don't be shy, I for one would like to recieve information on this so if anyone out there has some idea it would be much appreciated.


    Oh, and please please let's not degenerate into arguments about the validity of Seitei.

    Lee

  • #2
    I cannot claim to really know anything about this, unfortunately, but here is what some qualified googling led me to:

    Twelve people, who were considered the top masters of iai, were asked to develop the standardized set of iai, drawing upon their own classical iai schools for inspiration.

    The seitei iai gata included the first seven kata, which were derived and modified from classical iai schools. The first two kata, Mae and Ushiro, came from the Ohmori-ryu. The third, Ukenagashi, was from kata found in the Ohmori-ryu and the Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu. The fourth kata, Tsuka Ate, was similar to tate hiza techniques of the Eishin-ryu. Then the next kata, Kesa Giri, was derived from the Hoki-ryu. The Morote Tsuki kata was a thrusting technique found in many different iai schools. (2)
    As the teaching of the seitei iai was refined, it was decided to add three more kata to further round out a student's training. The new kata were introduced in 1981. The eighth kata, Ganmen Ate, was derived from the Muso Shinden-ryu oku iai methods. Soete Tsuki came from a famous Hoki-ryu technique, and the tenth kata, Shiho Giri, was also from a Hoki-ryu kata.
    Both quotes are from http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/seite.html

    You'll have to decide for yourself if you think that's a trustworthy source. Unfortunately, nowhere in the article there is any reference to who these 12 people should have been.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Solinde,

      it seems from this that the twelve came from just three Ryu (MSR, MJER and Hoki).

      I can see Mae and Ushiro coming from the Omori Ryu MJER sets but Seitei Ukenagashi is very different to the Omori one.

      I tried Googling as well but couldn't find anything - you would think that something like this would have been recorded for posterity!

      Lee

      Comment


      • #4
        try E-Budo... they have loads of stuff on seitei in the archives, and I have seen several names there linked with its conception. It may take some digging though....

        Comment


        • #5
          According to the book Flashing Steel, someone called Masaoka Kazumi was the MJER representative.

          Comment


          • #6
            I got this from a VKIJF (a part of the All Belgium Kendo Federation) iai manual. Here we go, the "original" sensei involved in the development of the ZNKR seitei:
            - Muto S. (9th dan)
            - Yoshizawa I. (9th dan)
            - Masaoka (9th dan)
            - Yamatsuta J. (9th dan)
            - Yamamoto H. (9th dan)
            - Kamimoto E. (9th dan)
            - Danzaki T. (9th dan)
            - Suetsugu T. (8th dan)
            - Omura T. (8th dan)
            - Nakadu H. (8th dan)
            - Suwayama S. (8th dan)

            I don't know their ryu. Maybe someone else can figure that out, but it's a start.

            Comment


            • #7
              found these links (I love google):
              http://www.budogalicia.com/iaido/seitei.html
              http://www.zanshin-madrid.com/iaido/...i/seteiai1.htm

              I have no source to check if they are correct, but it looks that way.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mr. T.
                I have no source to check if they are correct, but it looks that way.
                They are not saying the same things really though...both names and what style they were differs somewhat.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Danku Mr T,

                  from what you have sourced I think I may have made some headway with this.

                  The following is a list I have compiled from the information in those Spanish websites and the Belgian one.
                  I suspect that Masaoka Ichijitsu and Masaoka Kazumi are one and the same as well as Yamatsuta Jukichi and Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi. This would bring me back to the 16 that I had heard about. If this suspicion of mine is wrong please tell me.

                  There is also some contradiction on the grade of Sawayama Shuzo - any advice on this is gratefully received

                  This is the compilation so far;

                  Sensei Dan Ryu
                  Muto Shyuzo 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
                  Yoshizawa Kazuki 9 HOKI
                  Masaoka Ichijitsu 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                  Yamamoto Haruske 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                  Terai Tomotaka 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
                  Suetsugu Tamezo 8 MUSO SHINDEN
                  Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                  Kamimoto Eiichi 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
                  Danzaki Tomoaki 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                  Omura Tadaji 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                  Nukada Hisashi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                  Sawayama Shuzo 9/8 HOKI
                  Yamatsuta Jukichi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                  Wada Hachiro 8 MUSO SHINDEN
                  Tsumaki Seirin 8 TAMIYA
                  Masoaka Kazumi 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                  Hashimoto Masatake 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                  Mitani Yoshisato 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Danku Mr T,

                    from what you have sourced I think I may have made some headway with this.

                    The following is a list I have compiled from the information in those Spanish websites and the Belgian one.
                    I suspect that Masaoka Ichijitsu and Masaoka Kazumi are one and the same as well as Yamatsuta Jukichi and Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi. This would bring me back to the 16 that I had heard about. If this suspicion of mine is wrong please tell me.

                    There is also some contradiction on the grade of Sawayama Shuzo - any advice on this is gratefully received

                    This is the compilation so far;

                    Sensei Dan Ryu
                    Muto Shyuzo 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
                    Yoshizawa Kazuki 9 HOKI
                    Masaoka Ichijitsu 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                    Yamamoto Haruske 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                    Terai Tomotaka 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
                    Suetsugu Tamezo 8 MUSO SHINDEN
                    Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                    Kamimoto Eiichi 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
                    Danzaki Tomoaki 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                    Omura Tadaji 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                    Nukada Hisashi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                    Sawayama Shuzo 9/8 HOKI
                    Yamatsuta Jukichi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
                    Wada Hachiro 8 MUSO SHINDEN
                    Tsumaki Seirin 8 TAMIYA
                    Masoaka Kazumi 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                    Hashimoto Masatake 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                    Mitani Yoshisato 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Danku Mr T,

                      from what you have sourced I think I may have made some headway with this.

                      The following is a list I have compiled from the information in those Spanish websites and the Belgian one.
                      I suspect that Masaoka Ichijitsu and Masaoka Kazumi are one and the same as well as Yamatsuta Jukichi and Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi. This would bring me back to the 16 that I had heard about. If this suspicion of mine is wrong please tell me.

                      There is also some contradiction on the grade of Sawayama Shuzo - any advice on this is gratefully received

                      This is the compilation so far;

                      Sensei - Dan - Ryu
                      Muto Shyuzo - 9 - HASEGAWA EISHIN
                      Yoshizawa Kazuki - 9 - HOKI
                      Masaoka Ichijitsu - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                      Yamamoto Haruske - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                      Terai Tomotaka - 9 - HASEGAWA EISHIN
                      Suetsugu Tamezo - 8 - MUSO SHINDEN
                      Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
                      Kamimoto Eiichi - 9 - HASEGAWA EISHIN
                      Danzaki Tomoaki - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
                      Omura Tadaji - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
                      Nukada Hisashi - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
                      Sawayama Shuzo - 9/8 - HOKI
                      Yamatsuta Jukichi - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
                      Wada Hachiro - 8 - MUSO SHINDEN
                      Tsumaki Seirin - 8 - TAMIYA
                      Masoaka Kazumi - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                      Hashimoto Masatake - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
                      Mitani Yoshisato - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN


                      As I said earlier please feel free to advise or comment on this.

                      Lee

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've heard of double posting, but this is a little over doing it

                        I was thinking. Isn't it easier to contact to IKF or the ZNKR? This way we're sure who did what ryu.
                        Last edited by Mr. T.; 19th February 2006, 04:38 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This way's more fun

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Nothing to do with me guys,

                            when I posted it I only hit the key once.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              ...as the bishop said to the actress.

                              Comment

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