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  • Tsuki Hazushi Uchi?

    I like tsuki hazushi uchi. But it doesn't really make sense to me. I thought it would in the context of kata but apparently the kata starts in that stance with your jo above your head. I had just assumed you were forcing the sword to tsuki. But you don't take the stance, mid-combat so why in god's name would you be standing with on a road or in the middle of a rice paddy with your jo above your head? Any self-respecting samurai would think 'bloody peasant must be nuts' and avoid them.

    I don't get it.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Newbie View Post
    I like tsuki hazushi uchi. But it doesn't really make sense to me. I thought it would in the context of kata but apparently the kata starts in that stance with your jo above your head. I had just assumed you were forcing the sword to tsuki. But you don't take the stance, mid-combat so why in god's name would you be standing with on a road or in the middle of a rice paddy with your jo above your head? Any self-respecting samurai would think 'bloody peasant must be nuts' and avoid them.

    I don't get it.

    Short answer: The kamae itself enables the defender to go on both the offensive and defensive (the former is Ukan, the latter Sakan-kata). In the kage-series there is another example of techniques excecuted from this kamae. May look silly, but it is devious and dangerous if you dont know what to expect.

    This is just the short answer though. I'm gonna let the higher uppers fill in on the rest.

    *Edit*

    If you have seen the "Rai uchi" kata then you'll notice the shidachi very briefly moving the Jo to the Tsuki Hazushi Uchi kamae with the jo above his/her head though quickly so it isn't visible when excecuting it at proper speed.

    Comment


    • #3
      Here is a example of Rai Uchi.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thu

        Fred's right, and you're not just standing in the middle of a rice paddy as you put it. All of the starting kamae mark the beginning of a combative engagement so you are indeed luring the uchidachi to make a tsuki.

        Fred, it's interesting what you wrote about the contrast of Ukan to Sakan and that the former has an initially offensive nature in both omote and kage in comparison to the latter.

        Your point about Rai Uchi however is stretching it a bit. The video you posted doesn't really represent the real pace of the kata and the movement of the jo between thrusts isn't properly executed here. A horizontal rotation is no longer the flavour of the week and has been replaced with the original (Fukuoka style) vertical rotation of the jo. Even with the old Tokyo style, the practitioner only passes through a similar body position to Sakan by coincidence and isn't supposed to linger there as they do on the vid.

        Hurrah for an interesting question though.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Andy_Watson View Post
          Fred's right, and you're not just standing in the middle of a rice paddy as you put it. All of the starting kamae mark the beginning of a combative engagement so you are indeed luring the uchidachi to make a tsuki.

          Fred, it's interesting what you wrote about the contrast of Ukan to Sakan and that the former has an initially offensive nature in both omote and kage in comparison to the latter.
          In retrospect I realised I was a bit hasty in that comment. The initial "pinning" of the opponent is a response to an attack. Which technically is defensive. My bad.

          Originally posted by Andy_Watson View Post
          Your point about Rai Uchi however is stretching it a bit. The video you posted doesn't really represent the real pace of the kata and the movement of the jo between thrusts isn't properly executed here. A horizontal rotation is no longer the flavour of the week and has been replaced with the original (Fukuoka style) vertical rotation of the jo. Even with the old Tokyo style, the practitioner only passes through a similar body position to Sakan by coincidence and isn't supposed to linger there as they do on the vid.

          Hurrah for an interesting question though.
          I agree that the Rai Uchi clip was not the best I've seen. In reality the Rai uchi should move very VERY swiftly from one side to the other without stopping. However, minus the slower speed shown in the above clip, the "horizontal version" is the one we are taught at our dojo. Though I'm not gonna swear it is exactly as you guys have done it in the past. As a rough guide: we are taught to keep it horizontal, albeit only for a microsecond, when switching from one side to the other.

          So I'm afraid stating that this or that type of movement is "not longer practiced" is in fact stretching it a bit as well since we have no single organisation to make these changes (or reverting previous changes) universal.

          I realise other groups do it differently, and apparently our way is not the "flavour of the week" anymore, but I'm not really up for a debate on pro's and con's. Let the Wise Men judge that for themselves .

          Comment


          • #6
            Doh!

            Oops sorry, instant assumption of ZNKR seitei jodo syndrome again.

            Which end of Japan does your SMR lineage descend from Fred as I understand that the change from horizontal to vertical was an influence from the original Fukuoka style?

            Regards

            Andy

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Andy_Watson View Post

              Which end of Japan does your SMR lineage descend from Fred as I understand that the change from horizontal to vertical was an influence from the original Fukuoka style?

              Regards

              Andy
              Well..The lineage of the European Jodo Federation is mainly Shimizu Takaji though I know the EJF leader worked with Kaminoda for awhile after Shimizus death. Nowadays we work very closely with a japanese Sensei named Nishioka Tsuneo, Menkyo Kaiden (1975) under Shimizu Takaji. It was Nishioka who issued Pascal Krieger (of the EJF) his Menkyo Kaiden. Nishioka Tsuneo has a Jodo org named "Sei Ryu Kai" (much like Kaminoda Senseis "Nihon Jodokai").

              You mentioned earlier "old style tokyo Jo". You are not far from the truth as Nishioka started learning SMR-Jo in the early 1940's (recieving Shomokuroku in 1943) and without a doubt there are differences between what, for instance, Kaminoda Sensei teaches though both are from the same Tokyo-lineage.

              I cant overstate how much he has meant to the EJF (and IJF) and how much respect he has earned. Actually if you browse around the official European Jodo Federations website you can see it for yourself.

              Anyways, thats our lineage.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ejf

                Cheers Fred. Very interesting.

                I thought what you said might be the case. I am very interested in what used to constitute Shimizu sensei's koryu as, as I understand it, it varied through his time and that has had great influence on the various groups who emerged from his teachings. For example, the koryu taught by Hiroi sensei sounds quite different from that taught by some of the western people who learned jodo very early on. I guess I just find it fascinating how Shimizu sensei developed and made alterations to jodo through his experience of teaching it to people in Tokyo.

                Regards

                Andy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Andy_Watson View Post
                  I guess I just find it fascinating how Shimizu sensei developed and made alterations to jodo through his experience of teaching it to people in Tokyo.

                  I agree.
                  (did we scare off Newbie by the way? )

                  While we are discussing the evolution alterations of Jodo and lineage perhaps I could mention a bit about the influences involved with Seitei Jodo (which I assume many here are training).
                  (Please note before I begin, I'm not a seitei Jodoka and I what I've learned about it is from secondary sources.)

                  As you guys know, Shimizu held a close cooperation with the Kendo community in Tokyo teaching many of them Jodo. The kendo community had a strong influence on Jodo in the days of Shimizu Takaji.

                  One of the main influences was combat posture. The combat posture in kendo is having your body straight ahead. In SMR the posture is more diagonal. (I hope I'm expressing myself correctly, its hard for me to describe technical stuff). In Honte no kamae, for instance, the right hip is pointing not to the immediate right but more to the "North East". The straight position seems to be found mostly in Seitei Jodo dojos, (but not always). I dont know if it was a concious effort to include the straight position in Seitei or if it came naturally due to the many kendoka that trained Seitei Jodo.

                  I think this is an example of a Kendo type posture but its hard to see properly since its a profile shot.

                  And here is a SMR type posture. (The Shidachi is Nishioka Tsuneo).

                  Another influence on Seitei Jodo was the position of the Jo itself in (for instance) honte no kamae. Some seitei jodoka I've seen holds the jo in front & center of him like a Flag/banner-barrier. Using this posture and positioning, the jodoka, in order to facilitate a "honte uchi", must first pull the jo from the center to the left hip and then start the actual draw. In the SMR "honte no kamae", the hips are positioned diagonal and the jo is placed near the hip with open space behind it at all times which enables the wielder to draw the jo at ease and with no restrictions.

                  Here is a better photo of a honte no kamae SMR posture. The hips are diagonal and the Jo's position enables it to be drawn swiftly.

                  Influence number three I'm honestly not sure if it is a Kendo influence at all, maybe you guys can help with that.
                  In Seitei Jodo on the sword-side there seems to be a dominance for strikes made from overhead (Jodan). In SMR the trend is mostly (but not dominant in all SMR groups) to strike directly from "hasso" position unless the kata dictates Jodan or other type of strike. The hasso preference I believe is mainly Fukuoka-style rather than Tokyo. When I first started my training I was told to start with Jodan and much later move on to hasso-strikes as I progress. I'm not sure if Jodan is a kendo-trait or if it was simply decided to use it in Seitei Jodo for other reasons. I also see some variations between certain Seitei Jodo dojos. Some have the hips in SMR-style but position of the jo still at the center and in front of the body.

                  All in all, these differences are dependant on the Sensei and his/her experience in either SMR or Seitei that colour the teachings so I doubt it is truly "standard" after all.

                  So thats a bit on the influences on Jodo. Sorry for long post and I hope I got all the seitei information correct.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    (did we scare off Newbie by the way? )
                    Heh, not quite. A fair bit is going over my head but I'm speed-reading whilst at work so that hopefully accounts for some of it..

                    Another influence on Seitei Jodo was the position of the Jo itself in (for instance) honte no kamae. Some seitei jodoka I've seen holds the jo in front & center of him like a Flag/banner-barrier. Using this posture and positioning, the jodoka, in order to facilitate a "honte uchi", must first pull the jo from the center to the left hip and then start the actual draw. In the SMR "honte no kamae", the hips are positioned diagonal and the jo is placed near the hip with open space behind it at all times which enables the wielder to draw the jo at ease and with no restrictions.
                    I only do seitei but if someone can push the joseki (sp?) backwards and it hits my stomach, hip, any part of me, then my angle's wrong and sempai rides me about it.

                    In Seitei Jodo on the sword-side there seems to be a dominance for strikes made from overhead (Jodan). In SMR the trend is mostly (but not dominant in all SMR groups) to strike directly from "hasso" position unless the kata dictates Jodan or other type of strike.
                    Yuppers. I've always been told to come from hasso, through jodan to strike.

                    One of the prominent sensei in Aus though is really good about stuff in seitei that doesn't seem to quite make sense and explaining it's koryu origins so what you're doing make sense, even if it's been modified for seitei.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hey Fred

                      As far as your seitei points, number one, the hips are not square forward in seitei on the jo side. I was told they were when I first started many years ago, but the first Japanese sensei I ran into changed that.

                      Number 2, the jo is not centred, it carries off to the edge of the hip as Newbie mentioned. I've never been told to centre it that I recall.

                      Number 3. The initial move in a kata from hasso is through jodan, I've never seen anyone do it differently in seitei (or koryu, Tokyo or Fukuoka lines that I can recall offhand), but during kata the strikes are often coming directly from hasso.

                      Is modern jodo (seitei AND koryu) being influenced by kendo? Absolutely, since the majority of menkyo (including those who have separate koryu organizations) are in the kendo federation, how could there not be? The influence is either inclusionary (hmm there's some value to doing it like I do it when practicing kendo/iaido) or exclusionary (don't you guys dare do it like we do it in kendo), but either way the influence is there. Has to be since the discussion is ongoing unless you're cut off from everyone else.

                      As for variations, there used to be a lot of variation in seitei, including some very common Tokyo/Fukuoka differences but in the last several years there has been a very strong and cordial push to standardize it. The differences were subjected to some give and take and it continues to come together. The differences are on the lines of when you move your back hand completely around while doing kaeshi tsuki, when you move your gyakute to honte at the end of the kihon, when you move your kissaki from jo's right side to left side at the ending of a kata... in other words, fairly meaningless movements. (You can give excellent combative reasons for doing things either way, which means they are pretty much equivalent and therefore let's just settle on one to stop the stupid arguments).

                      Just one further small but important point as I've come to understand it. The jodo committee of the kendo federation are also SMR koryu sensei. The kendo guys do not dictate in any way how to do jodo (hunh? whaddya mean we have a judo section... oh JOdo... what's that?) nor is there any sort of dictate from the kendo side that we ought to fit either jodo or iaido to kendo. The seitei jo kata are created and modified by SMR/ZNKR jodo sensei, period.

                      Or, as it was explained to me... "in seitei tachi keeps their back heel up because that's what they do in kendo and we're in the kendo federation so that's how we're now doing it". In other words, our (SMR jodo) choice, not "we keep the back foot up because the kendo federation makes us do it". At the same time "jo usually keeps the back heel down and not square because that's jodo".

                      Fairly subtle point but important nonetheless if you think about it.

                      Kim Taylor

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                        Hey Fred

                        As far as your seitei points, number one, the hips are not square forward in seitei on the jo side. I was told they were when I first started many years ago, but the first Japanese sensei I ran into changed that.
                        Ah I see.

                        Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                        Number 2, the jo is not centred, it carries off to the edge of the hip as Newbie mentioned. I've never been told to centre it that I recall.
                        Hm..Well if thats the case I'm gonna have to put this one up to my inability to express myself in the english language. The official ZNKR Seitei Jodo video on google video helps explain what I meant. At time index 10.53 he demonstrates how to do Honte no kamae in which the jo (to me) seems to be exactly centered.

                        And if you dont mind me using yourself Kim as an example, you do almost the exact same thing in your Honte Uchi kihon video on your website. It does look like you are trying to shake the habit though (so to speak) and some of the honte uchis have the jo very close to the hip instead of center.

                        But this is just my interpretation of "center" and so on. I might have expressed myself poorly.

                        Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                        Number 3. The initial move in a kata from hasso is through jodan, I've never seen anyone do it differently in seitei (or koryu, Tokyo or Fukuoka lines that I can recall offhand), but during kata the strikes are often coming directly from hasso.
                        The intial move? You mean as in (for instance) Tachio Otoshi when the two combatants meet and cross weapons? Yes that sounds like what we are doing too. But! We dont do it a full jodan. Its more like a half-hasso half-jodan. I dont know if this is written in the "scriptures" or not..might be one of those things that crept in since we are encouraged to do alot of Jodan in the beginning and some if it might still be there in later levels too.

                        Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                        Is modern jodo (seitei AND koryu) being influenced by kendo? Absolutely, since the majority of menkyo (including those who have separate koryu organizations) are in the kendo federation, how could there not be? The influence is either inclusionary (hmm there's some value to doing it like I do it when practicing kendo/iaido) or exclusionary (don't you guys dare do it like we do it in kendo), but either way the influence is there. Has to be since the discussion is ongoing unless you're cut off from everyone else.
                        I agree..You should see our warm-up drills speaking of which. It was only the past month I realised it looked very much like a kendo-drill. (jodan strikes back and forth)

                        Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                        The kendo guys do not dictate in any way how to do jodo (hunh? whaddya mean we have a judo section... oh JOdo... what's that?) nor is there any sort of dictate from the kendo side that we ought to fit either jodo or iaido to kendo. The seitei jo kata are created and modified by SMR/ZNKR jodo sensei, period.
                        I admit I'm in the dark as to which governing body actually governs Seitei Jodo and how much influence it has. Heh, to an outsider like me, ZNKR, as in Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei kinda gives an impression that the whole shebang is run by Kendo guys.

                        Again I have to mention I have no hands-on experience with Seitei. My sensei holds Jodo-grade in the Swedish kendo federation/association, and he once told me he could both teach & grade me in seitei. But we've never done any seitei or graded in it. The closest thing I've gotten to seitei jodo education are just demonstrations on how the various groups does this-or-that technique or kata. "Fukuoka prefers this type of honte uchi, Tokyo prefers this and Seitei guys do that" (etc etc).

                        Anyways, thanks alot for yer answer on Seitei.
                        All the best
                        /Fred

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fred27 View Post
                          Hm..Well if thats the case I'm gonna have to put this one up to my inability to express myself in the english language. The official ZNKR Seitei Jodo video on google video helps explain what I meant. At time index 10.53 he demonstrates how to do Honte no kamae in which the jo (to me) seems to be exactly centered.

                          And if you dont mind me using yourself Kim as an example, you do almost the exact same thing in your Honte Uchi kihon video on your website. It does look like you are trying to shake the habit though (so to speak) and some of the honte uchis have the jo very close to the hip instead of center.

                          But this is just my interpretation of "center" and so on. I might have expressed myself poorly.



                          The intial move? You mean as in (for instance) Tachio Otoshi when the two combatants meet and cross weapons? Yes that sounds like what we are doing too. But! We dont do it a full jodan. Its more like a half-hasso half-jodan. I dont know if this is written in the "scriptures" or not..might be one of those things that crept in since we are encouraged to do alot of Jodan in the beginning and some if it might still be there in later levels too.
                          By "from the hip" I mean that if you extend the jo back from the rear hand it should touch the hip, not the tanden. If the jo is outside the hip it's in a very weak position and if it's in the centre than you have to move both hands to keep the josaki on the target as you pull it back and move it sideways to avoid the hip. The stance is "ya ya hanmi" here.

                          As for the move through jodan, actually in the matching movements you don't go through jodan. For tachi to go through jodan while matching is to open up a big hole for jo to attack through. I'm talking about techniques such as tsuki zue where you cut on the initial attack.

                          But I'm not the authority by any means Fred, I'm only a godan in jodo, so please don't consider my performance or my comments as anything other than as a student of the art. This should be obvious but sometimes I forget that on the net people do tend to assume expertise or authority where it doesn't exist.

                          I admit I'm in the dark as to which governing body actually governs Seitei Jodo and how much influence it has. Heh, to an outsider like me, ZNKR, as in Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei kinda gives an impression that the whole shebang is run by Kendo guys.
                          The ZNKR governs / owns / defines Zen Ken Ren jo (what folks usually call seitei), absolutely it does, and the ZNKR is run by kendo guys, of course.

                          But the jodo and iaido sections look after jodo and iaido. The kendo section looks after kendo.

                          Many of the top sensei practice more than one of the three arts under the federation, this being, I think, more common if your primary art is iaido or jodo rather than kendo. At least in Canada it's quite common for top ranked folks to be strictly kendo, while those who are top ranked in iaido tend also to do kendo or jodo as well. There are, however, lots of students and instructors who do only iaido or only jodo and of course a very large number who do only kendo.

                          All in Japan are in the ZNKR, so it's fair to say that the ZNKR governs jodo. We won't get into the relationship between the ZNKR and the IKF... FIK?) But let me give you an example from the CKF about names and governance since that's where I am. I sat on the constitutional committee years and years ago (dunno why, I guess because I had experience in such things) and at that time it was suggested (by the kendo folks actually) that we change the name to the Canadian kendo and iaido federation. I argued against that because the name was already well established over many decades, and anyone in the federation knows that it includes iaido and jodo as well as kendo. The name change would not have any new meaning and would only confuse things, as well as be more and more awkward if we also included jodo some time in the future (which we did). It was very welcome and gracious that the change was offered, but in the end we simply kept the CKF name as it was. So, although it's the Canadian KENDO Federation, there has always been a recognition from the kendo side that it includes iaido and jodo.

                          That's the externals of the thing, the name. As for the governance of jodo and iaido, even though there are no separate iaido and jodo sections under the constitution of the CKF (as there are in other countries such as the BKA) with members on the executive and separate budgets etc., there are technical committees and grading committees for both iaido and jodo and there has never been any attempt by one "section" to influence the technical aspects of another section. To be plain, the kendo sensei do not in any way suggest how we should practice jodo, nor do the iaido sensei. Each "section" functions on its own technically so to say that "kendo" influences the practice of jodo is not really accurate, yet the CKF jodo section is under the kendo federation.

                          As far as I know this situation is the same world-wide in the various kendo federations. I've never heard differently anyway.

                          Kim.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                            By "from the hip" I mean that if you extend the jo back from the rear hand it should touch the hip, not the tanden. If the jo is outside the hip it's in a very weak position and if it's in the centre than you have to move both hands to keep the josaki on the target as you pull it back and move it sideways to avoid the hip. The stance is "ya ya hanmi" here.
                            I cant find a decent photo of the type of honte-no-kamae to illustrate it.
                            In our honte-no-kamae and honti-uchi we keep the jo so that the butt-end never faces any part of the body but is instead pointed just past the hip instead of the center (tanden) or on the hip.

                            Its like holding a spear. The shaft of the spear goes back and beyond the body hugging the hip. Its this position we use, except of course its a jo which that doesnt extend as far back as the hips.

                            Oh, in case anyone is reading Pascal Kriegers book "Way of the Stick" to find a reference then it would be a bit out-of-date by about 20 years. In his book he shows it with the jo at the center but its been changed since then.

                            Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                            As for the move through jodan, actually in the matching movements you don't go through jodan. For tachi to go through jodan while matching is to open up a big hole for jo to attack through. I'm talking about techniques such as tsuki zue where you cut on the initial attack.
                            Ah! Gotcha. Yes in the initial first strike, like tsuke zue, we use a jodan attack in the beginning and then eventually, as we progress in Jodo, we do it directly from hasso. I'm still at half-hasso stage

                            Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                            But I'm not the authority by any means Fred, I'm only a godan in jodo, so please don't consider my performance or my comments as anything other than as a student of the art. This should be obvious but sometimes I forget that on the net people do tend to assume expertise or authority where it doesn't exist.
                            Well that is one of the inherited risks of putting videos of oneself on the internet for all to see and scrutinize. But yes I agree..If I were to put up videos of myself doing kihon and omote most peeps would be rolling on the floor laughing their asses off.

                            Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                            The ZNKR governs / owns / defines Zen Ken Ren jo (what folks usually call seitei), absolutely it does, and the ZNKR is run by kendo guys, of course.

                            But the jodo and iaido sections look after jodo and iaido. The kendo section looks after kendo.

                            Many of the top sensei practice more than one of the three arts under the federation, this being, I think, more common if your primary art is iaido or jodo rather than kendo. At least in Canada it's quite common for top ranked folks to be strictly kendo, while those who are top ranked in iaido tend also to do kendo or jodo as well. There are, however, lots of students and instructors who do only iaido or only jodo and of course a very large number who do only kendo.

                            All in Japan are in the ZNKR, so it's fair to say that the ZNKR governs jodo. We won't get into the relationship between the ZNKR and the IKF... FIK?) But let me give you an example from the CKF about names and governance since that's where I am. I sat on the constitutional committee years and years ago (dunno why, I guess because I had experience in such things) and at that time it was suggested (by the kendo folks actually) that we change the name to the Canadian kendo and iaido federation. I argued against that because the name was already well established over many decades, and anyone in the federation knows that it includes iaido and jodo as well as kendo. The name change would not have any new meaning and would only confuse things, as well as be more and more awkward if we also included jodo some time in the future (which we did). It was very welcome and gracious that the change was offered, but in the end we simply kept the CKF name as it was. So, although it's the Canadian KENDO Federation, there has always been a recognition from the kendo side that it includes iaido and jodo.

                            That's the externals of the thing, the name. As for the governance of jodo and iaido, even though there are no separate iaido and jodo sections under the constitution of the CKF (as there are in other countries such as the BKA) with members on the executive and separate budgets etc., there are technical committees and grading committees for both iaido and jodo and there has never been any attempt by one "section" to influence the technical aspects of another section. To be plain, the kendo sensei do not in any way suggest how we should practice jodo, nor do the iaido sensei. Each "section" functions on its own technically so to say that "kendo" influences the practice of jodo is not really accurate, yet the CKF jodo section is under the kendo federation.

                            As far as I know this situation is the same world-wide in the various kendo federations. I've never heard differently anyway.

                            Kim.
                            I think this is the best single piece of info I've ever recieved on the Seitei Jodo org. Thanks heaps!
                            /Fred

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              ...And before someone gives me wierd looks about the "spear"-example: Of course we dont hold our left hand on the hip in our honte no kamae like with a spear but have the left hand forward.

                              Oh and Newbie? If you find the Ichimonji no kamae of Sakan-kata to be "wierd", you should really check out the kamae found in "Yokogiri dome" kata .

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