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  • Fuzoku bujutsu

    If you are a ZNKR affiliated jodoka, do you practice any Fuzoku bujutsu or do you just leaveem to SMR guys?

    If you do practice Fuzoku bujutsu, then what stage of your studies do you take up tanjo, kenjutsu, kusarigama etc? What does it bring to your jodo if youre practicing additional weapons?



    _____________________________
    -- Mikko Lehmusvyory

  • #2
    We've just started doing kendo no kata after jodo as a lead up to doing kenjutsu. Kendo no kata (at least those that I've done), use nice, big kihon cuts. A lot of the movements in jodo should be these nice big movements, too so that's one area where it helps. Using other weapons also helps your mai-ai as your suddenly at closer (different) range to your partner.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by AMikko View Post
      If you are a ZNKR affiliated jodoka, do you practice any Fuzoku bujutsu or do you just leaveem to SMR guys?
      _____________________________
      -- Mikko Lehmusvyory

      The question isn't quite properly framed Mikko. There are plenty of SMR folks in the ZNKR who practice whatever SMR folks practice anywhere. That sometimes includes the extra/associated arts, sometimes not.

      The ZNKR has no specific comment on them, and the only comment on doing koryu kata is the requirement to demonstrate them at some point during the grading process. (Which is of course a very strong comment).

      The ZNKR has nothing to say about any koryu, certainly nothing to say about which, when or how many.

      Kim Taylor

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      • #4
        OK, but if you are not SMR folks inside ZNKR, do you still practice associated arts? In SMR, I guess, there are some guidelines when to start tanjo, kenjutsu etc. Don't they apply to the folks outside the ryu?

        So, as an ZNKR jodoka, who isn't part of the ryu, I can take up e.g. jutte when ever I like, if I just find an indulgent sensei? Is it, say, pedagogically proper or should I reach a certain dan-grade first?

        -- Mikko Lehmusvyory

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Newbie View Post
          We've just started doing kendo no kata after jodo as a lead up to doing kenjutsu. Kendo no kata (at least those that I've done), use nice, big kihon cuts. A lot of the movements in jodo should be these nice big movements, too so that's one area where it helps. Using other weapons also helps your mai-ai as your suddenly at closer (different) range to your partner.
          I think it's a default in jodo, that you already understand the swords correct ma-ai and ken no riho so you can break'em up with the jo. I believe that most jodoka these days are also practicing kendo or iaido for these reasons and in the old days men of the Kuroda-han were all trained in kenjutsu. So it's not just useful but almost essential for jodoka to know the nature of the weapon you are getting against and the correct distance of the swordsman.

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          • #6
            I met a few people in the ZNKR who practice 風俗棒術 which sounds like it might be something similar..?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by AMikko View Post
              OK, but if you are not SMR folks inside ZNKR, do you still practice associated arts? In SMR, I guess, there are some guidelines when to start tanjo, kenjutsu etc. Don't they apply to the folks outside the ryu?

              So, as an ZNKR jodoka, who isn't part of the ryu, I can take up e.g. jutte when ever I like, if I just find an indulgent sensei? Is it, say, pedagogically proper or should I reach a certain dan-grade first?

              -- Mikko Lehmusvyory
              The ZNKR really does have nothing to say about koryu practice. While sensei within the ZNKR will all have an opinion on when and from whom one should practice koryu, the organization itself is silent. Tanjo, kusari gama etc. are not part of the ZNKR curriculum so there is nothing to be said about them.

              In other words, yes, a ZNKR jodoka who is "not part of the ryu" can study whatever they want whenever they want from whomever they want.

              However, I'm not sure what you mean by "not part of the ryu" there isn't any way to become part of the ryu except by studying under an instructor of the ryu, and if you have found someone to teach you the jutte you're "in the ryu" so again I think the assumptions of the question are a bit off.

              The ZNKR and the SMR are not so far apart yet that one can say that ZNKR folks are outside the ryu. What can be said is that there are students and some sensei who are SMR jodoka who are not also ZNKR members. There are some sensei who are ZNKR members who have students who are not ZNKR members but there are no or very few ZNKR students whose sensei could be said to be outside the SMR.

              Kim Taylor

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Kingofmyrrh View Post
                I met a few people in the ZNKR who practice 風俗棒術 which sounds like it might be something similar..?
                Sure it's not 不足武術? hahaha


                ahem.....



                失礼しました 

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                • #9
                  Thought I'd add some additional info for how the SMR does it.

                  In our group, (European Jodo Federation), we dont have a very strict timetable when it comes to teaching the auxiliary arts. It is up to the individual dojo-sensei in at least some of these arts.
                  I was taught the first Tanjo and Shinto-ryu kenjutsu katas when I was in the Omote series, though I have heard Pascal Sensei mention that "usually" tanjo should be introduced in "late" chudan. The reason for wanting to present tanjo later, as I understood it form Pascal Sensei, was to prevent the risk of confusion when introducing a new set of principles that differs from the jo. Imagine going from the accustomed 128 cm handled with two hands to just 90 cm with one hand. You also have less time to react with the tanjo. But if your Sensei belives there will be no confusion, or maybe he is just a very good teacher , he'll decided to intro it earlier than the recommended timetable anyways.

                  The Shinto-ryu kenjutsu set of kata (12 of them) are the second part of the "okuden" kata-series of Shinto Muso Ryu, though I guess these days it is less strict. The kata themselves are not the most difficult in the kenjutsu world and the initial kata promote swordsmanship for new students.

                  The last three arts (jutte, kusarigama hojo) are taught only in Okuden and beyond as far as I know, though of course that might also be a local sensei thing.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fred27 View Post
                    The Shinto-ryu kenjutsu set of kata (12 of them) are the second part of the "okuden" kata-series of Shinto Muso Ryu, though I guess these days it is less strict. The kata themselves are not the most difficult in the kenjutsu world and the initial kata promote swordsmanship for new students.
                    Ive seen this at embu loooooooads of times. The kyoto-embu is completely awash with it. I think its a very simple set of kata, but when they are done well - as most jodo people do kata well - they do look really cool.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ZealUK View Post
                      Sure it's not 不足武術? hahaha


                      ahem.....



                      失礼しました 
                      Jesus! I thought this was beneath even me!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Andy_Watson View Post
                        Jesus! I thought this was beneath even me!
                        I know that was terrible wasn't it...

                        There was a free kobudo taikai on down here recently. I suggested the flyer should have 無念無料 written on it but nobody laughed.

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                        • #13
                          As far as when and how things are learned, these aren't set in stone. From the dim recesses of my brain I seem to recall reading that at Fukuoka when Shiriashi Hanjiro was teaching one didn't do tachi until several years of training had been acquired.

                          To further risk spreading unchecked info... the kihon (as a defined set, I'm sure there was kihon) didn't exist yet, so one just jumped into, presumably, Omote and carried on without knowing the tachi side of things for quite a while.

                          As for timing, Shimizu sensei apparently got Menkyo Kaiden in 9 years.

                          Compare that to now where one starts with a kihon solo and partner set, often (even in non-ZNKR groups) moving to Zen Ken Ren jo for a few kata or the whole set, then moving into Omote. All the while starting tachi at the same time as jo.

                          Quite different compared to 2 generations ago, but it's not too hard to explain. Shimizu sensei came to Tokyo and moved into a group of swordsmen who didn't know the jo. He had to show the sword side immediately, and he had to come up with the kihon (I seem to recall they were his creation) in order to train large groups of beginners. There was no one on one training with a senior possible since there were no seniors. Of course the training changed in that case, it had to. Soon jo was dominated by numbers from Tokyo and the old Fukuoka training system was likely adjusted accordingly.

                          As for progression through the ranks, I'm pretty sure what folks around here today would say about someone who claimed Menkyo Kaiden with 9 years practice.

                          Kim Taylor

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                            As far as when and how things are learned, these aren't set in stone. From the dim recesses of my brain I seem to recall reading that at Fukuoka when Shiriashi Hanjiro was teaching one didn't do tachi until several years of training had been acquired.
                            Kim Taylor
                            Ya I heard that too. To be specific I heard that one did not perform uchidachis role until you had a shomokuroku.

                            Yeh 9 years is a short time..Though he did seem to train everyday morning and afternoon and evening. And even so, in the Edo-period I doubt the samurai had to wait 30+ years for a Menkyo Kaiden.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fred27 View Post
                              Yeh 9 years is a short time..Though he did seem to train everyday morning and afternoon and evening. And even so, in the Edo-period I doubt the samurai had to wait 30+ years for a Menkyo Kaiden.
                              Hmph, and I walked to school barefoot 9 miles uphill both ways in the snow.

                              I suspect that like everything else, there's been a bit of education inflation going on. Just as you could get a fairly technical job with a high school education a generation ago but need a post graduate degree for it now, or when you could be a lifeguard with the ability to swim but now need national certification to a high degree, a menkyo kaiden likely meant "hey you know all the kata" at one point.

                              In that case 9 years should be plenty.

                              You know, you can get a doctorate in 5 years, let's say undergrad to PhD in 9 years if one goes straight past a masters. Surely one can learn a martial art in that same timeframe without having to invoke superhuman effort. What sensei has the time to supervise all that training anyway? ;-)

                              Kim Taylor

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