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  • Differences in Ran Ai

    Hi there.

    While browsing through youtube, always a good (or bad) source for budo movies, I noticed the following video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaJYx2F0cVw

    It is an interview with Fred Quant Sensei, and in the middle of the interview it has a movie of Ran Ai.

    Besides the (impressive, at least for me) speed of the kata, and besides the fact that there's a little mistake at the end, what caught my attention was that there are certain movements that look a bit different than the ones I normally see when other people do it.

    Now, I'm no expert at Ran Ai, or Jodo for that matter. I've only managed to get the sequence of movements right for the first time a few months ago, but some movements do look different, particularly the bit after kuri hanashi.

    Any thoughts on this ?

    Best regards and a great 2009 to everyone.

  • #2
    Fq

    Hi there

    Fred and others in Europe follow Pascal Kreiger Sensei and Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei of the European Jodo Federation. There are many others on here who can explain the differences better than me but from what I understand, Nishioka Sensei's jodo was "established" (for want of a better word) during the period when Shimizu Takaji Sensei was making changes from the traditional Fukuoka style into the more modern Tokyo style so within the EJF you will see aspects of both areas of jodo.

    In fact, these aspects almost form a third pole (as in polarity) in the style and it is very interesting to watch the EJF practitioners.

    Comment


    • #3
      Andy is correct. Nishioka Sensei's style is more akin to Shimizu Senseis teachings of the early-mid 40's. The former started teaching Pascal Sensei in mid 1990's.
      But, Pascal Sensei started learning Jodo in 1968 (Shimizu's later teachings).

      So Pascal Sensei has both early and late Shimizu teachings in his system and here in the EJF we have the best of both worlds :-). I agree that in some part it forms a third pole.

      jmaia: I train in the EJF. What part was it that felt different in Fred Quants ran ai?


      Originally posted by Andy_Watson View Post
      Hi there

      Fred and others in Europe follow Pascal Kreiger Sensei and Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei of the European Jodo Federation. There are many others on here who can explain the differences better than me but from what I understand, Nishioka Sensei's jodo was "established" (for want of a better word) during the period when Shimizu Takaji Sensei was making changes from the traditional Fukuoka style into the more modern Tokyo style so within the EJF you will see aspects of both areas of jodo.

      In fact, these aspects almost form a third pole (as in polarity) in the style and it is very interesting to watch the EJF practitioners.
      Last edited by Fred27; 21st January 2009, 05:21 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Fred27 View Post
        Andy is correct. Nishioka Sensei's style is more akin to Shimizu Senseis teachings of the early-mid 40's. The former started teaching Pascal Sensei in mid 1990's.
        But, Pascal Sensei started learning Jodo in 1968 (Shimizu's later teachings).

        So Pascal Sensei has both early and late Shimizu teachings in his system and here in the EJF we have the best of both worlds :-). I agree that in some part it forms a third pole.

        jmaia: I train in the EJF. What part was it that felt different in Fred Quants ran ai?
        Nothing hugely different Fred. Toward the end just before the roll over of the jo to thrust/hit the eyes the tachi drives down the jo to start the movement, ZNKR doesn't make that move. At the last movement of jo that drives tachi back to hasso to make his final cut the tachi removes the hand from the tsuka, we don't do that.

        Beyond that it's not that different from my viewing. Maybe hands crossed vs not crossed at the initial catch and "kuri tsuke" position? I'd have to go do ranai to check what we do but I think we keep the kissaki toward jo. That sort of thing can change depending on who's on jo and how aggressive the kuri tsuke, my kata changed at a seminar a while ago to a crossed-hand tachi when working with Meik Skoss, the way he did kuri tsuke I just ended up cross handed, didn't realize it until later because it really doesn't make much difference in the kata.

        Kim Taylor

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
          Nothing hugely different Fred. Toward the end just before the roll over of the jo to thrust/hit the eyes the tachi drives down the jo to start the movement, ZNKR doesn't make that move. At the last movement of jo that drives tachi back to hasso to make his final cut the tachi removes the hand from the tsuka, we don't do that.


          Kim Taylor
          Oh that one. Yeh we are taught to be sneaky and try to cut the shidachis leg but we have to instantly retreat as the jo uses the energy and flips over to strike the uchidachi.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Fred27 View Post
            jmaia: I train in the EJF. What part was it that felt different in Fred Quants ran ai?
            The part that looks different, at least to my untrained, and unexperienced eyes, is the part after kuri hanahsi. I noticed two differences, but maybe there are more, or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know....

            Difference #1

            Before the jo do thrusts / does seme to the tachi's eyes, the tachi tries to take the jo out of the way.

            Diferrence #2

            After the bit in difference #1, and after tachi tries to cut, when the jo attacks the suigetsu, it looks like the jo is pushing the tachi back by taking small steps (maybe 2/3).

            Are these real differences ?

            jm

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jmaia View Post

              Are these real differences ?

              jm
              Now there's a question that could take a while to answer.

              Kim Taylor

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                Now there's a question that could take a while to answer.

                Kim Taylor
                Aye..There are several topics that has this discussion which both Mr. Taylor and meself has contributed too.

                jmaia: I recommend you browse through some of the topics here and see what you can find.

                Difference #1

                Before the jo do thrusts / does seme to the tachi's eyes, the tachi tries to take the jo out of the way.
                Yes. Like I described in my above post, the tachi tries to cut at the leg/knee of the shidachi and thus pushes the jo out of the way. It backfires however and the Jo quickly flips over and attacks.

                Diferrence #2

                After the bit in difference #1, and after tachi tries to cut, when the jo attacks the suigetsu, it looks like the jo is pushing the tachi back by taking small steps (maybe 2/3).
                When comparing the suigetsu thrust with seitei/tokyo and the EJF you find one major difference.
                What we are taught is once the tachi cuts we take step back and point teh jo at the eyes. This is of course normal for both Tokyo and EJF. The difference is that we are taught to slowly "fall" forward and let gravity deliver the jo to suigetsu, make contact, and push the uchidachi back with a few steps.
                In contrast too, like Tokyo as I understand it, the jo is quickly pushed down to the wrist and suigetsu with just one step in a very fast movement.

                The differences are not "right" or "wrong", (though I guess not all feel that way), but simply different in application with maybe an emphasize on THIS application rather than THAT application. In fact there are a few topics where we discuss more of these differences. Do a quick browse of the Jo-section here and you'll find some .

                Hope I made some sense.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Was inspired to do a quick few lines on the topic on my blog http://sdksupplies.com/001blog.html for Jan 21 under "Is that a real difference" if anyone is interested.

                  Kim Taylor.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fred27 View Post
                    The differences are not "right" or "wrong", (though I guess not all feel that way), but simply different in application with maybe an emphasize on THIS application rather than THAT application.
                    Hi Fred,

                    It never was my intention to imply that one was right and another wrong. I merely noticed some differences and wanted to know the reason.

                    I stopped thinking about right or wrong when I attended my first iaido seminar abroad 4 years ago... I noticed people doing things I had never seen like this "weird behaviour" of tying the sageo on the left side and not the right as I was used to, but then soon realized that it was supposed to be like that because of their particular style.

                    Even if Jodo only has a ryu I have noticed that there have been some differences in interpretation, so I'm not surprised to see katas performed in different ways. But I do like to know about these differences, and the motives and reasons behind them, it makes budo much more interesting...

                    Anyway, thanks for the reply, you did make sense !

                    jm

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kim Taylor View Post
                      Was inspired to do a quick few lines on the topic on my blog http://sdksupplies.com/001blog.html for Jan 21 under "Is that a real difference" if anyone is interested.
                      Hi Kim,

                      I read the article on your "bloggie thingie" and I agree. Maybe the reason I immediately noticed the "difference" is because I really am a beginner and I know only one way to do the kata (and even that way I do not know very well).

                      I was not comparing the video with "my beginner's way", though. I was comparing it to what I have seen in other people's (and some of these definitely NOT beginners) kata. And also with what we have in our ZNKR seitei jodo manual. And it just looked different...

                      You are also right about the videos, and that's why I started the thread by saying that youtube can be a good or bad source for budo movies. In fact, we really don't know if what we are seeing is that person's way of doing the kata, or just a mistake that has been covered up.

                      Cheers,

                      jm

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