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A few videos of Jodo - Kenjutsu - KusariGama

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  • A few videos of Jodo - Kenjutsu - KusariGama

    Some rather old films (not videos) of Shimizu, Kaminoda and Donn Draeger during their US tour.

    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...q=0&oq=Donn+Dr

    You can also check out some Jutte and Kusari films too.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/oikddojo

  • #2
    A short profile (part 1 +2) of Donn Draeger doing Katori Shinto Ryu and Shindo Muso Ryu

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ6tAJMDkLY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKmcbdKKYc

    Comment


    • #3
      I especially liked the part where he says....

      'I hate Kendo, Karate, Judo and their ridiculous Dan and Kyu grades. I returned all my grades. They have no meaning. They are not Bujutsu"

      Comment


      • #4
        Better get this thread moved to flames.

        Originally posted by Roger Lee View Post
        I especially liked the part where he says....

        'I hate Kendo, Karate, Judo and their ridiculous Dan and Kyu grades. I returned all my grades. They have no meaning. They are not Bujutsu"
        Nothing says "respectworthy martial artist" like insulting three other critical Japanese arts while simultaneously suggesting you have unique authority for describing the only true way of fighting.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Roger Lee View Post
          I especially liked the part where he says....

          'I hate Kendo, Karate, Judo and their ridiculous Dan and Kyu grades. I returned all my grades. They have no meaning. They are not Bujutsu"
          Except that isn't what he said. The point he was making was obviously that he said the hates the dan/kyu system but he never mentioned "Kendo, Karate, Judo" at all nor he also did say he had "returned all his grades", rather that in spirit he would have no problem in returning them. Regarding kendo, judo, etc, in fact just prior to that clip he quite clearly states regarding gendai budo and kobudo that one is not better than the other but that they are "just different".

          Rennis Buchner

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Rennis View Post
            Except that isn't what he said. The point he was making was obviously that he said the hates the dan/kyu system but he never mentioned "Kendo, Karate, Judo" at all nor he also did say he had "returned all his grades", rather that in spirit he would have no problem in returning them. Regarding kendo, judo, etc, in fact just prior to that clip he quite clearly states regarding gendai budo and kobudo that one is not better than the other but that they are "just different".

            Rennis Buchner
            Nice try at the debunking thing. Might want to polish up your Japanese and listen to the video again without the woman's overvoice - after a while you'll get what he's talking about. He made it quite clear he regards Gendai budo as nothing more than a show and how they are not bujutsu. Of course it's open to interpretation but most people will get what he means.

            Don't attack me - I didn't say it he did.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Roger Lee View Post
              Nice try at the debunking thing. Might want to polish up your Japanese and listen to the video again without the woman's overvoice - after a while you'll get what he's talking about. He made it quite clear he regards Gendai budo as nothing more than a show and how they are not bujutsu. Of course it's open to interpretation but most people will get what he means.

              Don't attack me - I didn't say it he did.
              My original point was that at no point did he ever explicitly actually say what you quoted him as saying and neither does the context of what he actually did say entirely support your "quotation" either.

              Here is what he actually said (as an aside, like many when I first saw this video back in 1998, I was surprised at how poor Draeger's Japanese actually was, so some degree of smoothing out what he is saying is necessary when going back into English)

              僕は段と級大嫌いです。意味ないですよ。あれは新しい、 武士じゃないですね、あれ町人のやつ。本当僕関係ないです。もう全部返します、宜しい。関係ない。本当意味 ないです。そのところ武道のところ、ちょっと汚いですね。段と級、あれも商売です。

              "I really hate dan and kyu (rankings). They have no meaning. They are new, not from warriors. They are from merchants. Really, for me they have nothing to do with anything. I'll give them all back, that's fine. (They have) no connection (to martial arts). They have no meaning. From a budo point of view they are kind of dirty. Dan and kyu, they are commerce."

              I am very well aware of Draeger's opinions and biases. His Japanese is not particularly great but based on what he DID say he quite clearly hates the dan/kyu system and the influence it has had. He dislikes the kyu/dan system, among other reasons, because it originated from the merchant class, was not used by the warrior class (one of his biases) and is of the opinion that the kyu/dan system has no meaning in true martial arts. Yes he is showing his bias he inherited from his own teachers here, but again he is talking about the dan-i system, NOT gendai budo. We can of course make the leap that gendai budo uses the dan/kyu system therefore he is really criticizing gendai budo, but I know for a fact that he did not hate all gendai budo (for example his comments that original kodokan judo was great, but he did not like the sport focus of Olympic judo, among numerous other positive comments about various gendai budo and practitioners of them)

              At 5:23 in the video (part 2) he does discuss the fact that he feels most (80% to 90%) of the foreign practitioners in Japan of gendai budo such as karate, judo and aikido, are in it for the money when they return to their country and can open their own dojos, but again, he is talking about a certain group, not the arts in their entirety.

              Other the years I have meet and talked about Draeger with a number of people who had both met and knew him personally, both Japanese and foreign, and I know for a fact that Draeger did have strong feelings about the direction many arts were taking , but again he did not discuss such issues here. Anyone who knows me knows I am no Draeger apologist and in the past I have written specifically about some of the issues I have had with his work. That said I feel your "quotation" of him was somewhat misleading as it was simply NOT something he said, either actually nor contextually.

              Comment


              • #8
                For reference the quote above was from 6:17 to 6:47 of the second video.

                Comment


                • #9
                  That was a really good post, Rennis. Thanks for taking the time to clarify what was said.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rennis View Post
                    My original point was that at no point did he ever explicitly actually say what you quoted him as saying and neither does the context of what he actually did say entirely support your "quotation" either.

                    Here is what he actually said (as an aside, like many when I first saw this video back in 1998, I was surprised at how poor Draeger's Japanese actually was, so some degree of smoothing out what he is saying is necessary when going back into English)

                    僕は段と級大嫌いです。意味ないですよ。あれは新しい、 武士じゃないですね、あれ町人のやつ。本当僕関係ないです。もう全部返します、宜しい。関係ない。本当意味 ないです。そのところ武道のところ、ちょっと汚いですね。段と級、あれも商売です。

                    "I really hate dan and kyu (rankings). They have no meaning. They are new, not from warriors. They are from merchants. Really, for me they have nothing to do with anything. I'll give them all back, that's fine. (They have) no connection (to martial arts). They have no meaning. From a budo point of view they are kind of dirty. Dan and kyu, they are commerce."

                    I am very well aware of Draeger's opinions and biases. His Japanese is not particularly great but based on what he DID say he quite clearly hates the dan/kyu system and the influence it has had. He dislikes the kyu/dan system, among other reasons, because it originated from the merchant class, was not used by the warrior class (one of his biases) and is of the opinion that the kyu/dan system has no meaning in true martial arts. Yes he is showing his bias he inherited from his own teachers here, but again he is talking about the dan-i system, NOT gendai budo. We can of course make the leap that gendai budo uses the dan/kyu system therefore he is really criticizing gendai budo, but I know for a fact that he did not hate all gendai budo (for example his comments that original kodokan judo was great, but he did not like the sport focus of Olympic judo, among numerous other positive comments about various gendai budo and practitioners of them)

                    At 5:23 in the video (part 2) he does discuss the fact that he feels most (80% to 90%) of the foreign practitioners in Japan of gendai budo such as karate, judo and aikido, are in it for the money when they return to their country and can open their own dojos, but again, he is talking about a certain group, not the arts in their entirety.

                    Other the years I have meet and talked about Draeger with a number of people who had both met and knew him personally, both Japanese and foreign, and I know for a fact that Draeger did have strong feelings about the direction many arts were taking , but again he did not discuss such issues here. Anyone who knows me knows I am no Draeger apologist and in the past I have written specifically about some of the issues I have had with his work. That said I feel your "quotation" of him was somewhat misleading as it was simply NOT something he said, either actually nor contextually.
                    Thanks for translating that and clarifying, Rennis.

                    And you're certainly not a Draeger apologist.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Rennis bringing the thunder, as usual.

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