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  • Thread in E-budo.com regarding Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu

    I am starting this thread in response to http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37147

    That was started by Mr. Colin Watkin-Hyakutake, a know member of e-budo and kendoworld foruns. He did that after deleting two previous threads on e-budo about Gosho ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. In both threads, he wrote false information regarding Shihan Gosho Motoharu and other members of the ryu.

    The original threads are available in http://www.geocities.com/sidhartabr/

    This talk was over for me since he deleted the two threads. But in the last days, more false information about the ryu have been posted, some direct addressed to me. My account on that forum was blocked, leaving me no choice but to answer in this other board, that shares many members with e-budo.
    I apologize for the members of KendoWorld, but what is right must be done. I can't allow lies about Shihan Gosho Motoharu, and other masters of the ryu been spread.

    It's very shameful to see a person who others in these foruns admire and who identifies himself as international representative making those claims. Gosho Sensei was the person who taught Imai Massayuke, the 10th Soke and master of Mr. Watkin's teacher.

    Gosho Sensei was a close disciple of Aoki Soke, and received Menkyo Kaiden both in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and Sekiguchi Ryu. Also, Aoki Soke choose him as Soke daiken of Niten Ichi ryu, with the mission to teach and represent the ryu with Kiyonaga Tadanao, the 9th Soke.

    When Imai soke started practicing the ryu, in 1975, it was Gosho Sensei who taught him, because Kiyonaga Soke was hurt in his leg. This wound caused his death months later, in 1976. 8 mounths after, the Kiyonaga family choosed Imai Massayuke to stay as 10th Soke while Kiyonaga Fumiya, the son of the soke, would be the 11th, and asked Gosho Sensei to support him.

    At that time, Imai Soke's knowledge of the ryu's techniques were limited. In the following years, Gosho Sensei taught him the ryu's curriculum. They splintered their ways after 1988. Imai Soke wanted to be alone in charge of the ryu and Gosho sensei had responsibilities with the Sekiguchi Ryu and his own Kendo and Iaido groups. Imai Soke didn't received Menkyo Kaiden at this time and not after this.

    After this, Imai Soke changed the katas of the ryu deeply. All techniques were modified. The result was very different of the niten ichi ryu taught by Aoki Soke. Senior members of the ryu, like Kiyonaga Fumiya Sensei and Nishioka Tiyomi knew the original katas. Mr. Iwami Toshio started after this time and had no contact with the ryu's original form.

    Some years ago, Imai Soke changed his mind about what was stabilized years earlier, and decided to have three successors instead of one. That decision splintered the ryu. After Kiyonaga Sensei passed away, in 2004, the great majority of the members of the ryu decided not to follow mr. Iwami, but to preserve the original form of the Kata with Gosho sensei. Some of these members belongs to the ryu for decades, before Mr. Iwami started. THEY are the ryu.

    To see a student of Mr. Iwami denying that Gosho Sensei was the teacher of Imai Soke and saying in public things like that Gosho Sensei gave himself a Menkyo Kaiden, that he had no permission to have his Ha and that Aoki Soke gave "a lot of papers" is very shameful.

    Also, the website (www.hyoho.com) has wrong information about when Imai Soke started practicing and who his teacher were. It says that Imai Soke started in 1956 with Aoki Soke and later in 1967 with Kiyonaga Soke. This information is completely wrong. He started in 1975, and his teacher was Gosho Sensei.

    It's wrong to put the blame of this in Imai Soke, saying that "was provided by Nippon Budokan as an article and lecture given for them by Imai Soke in Japanese". If Imai Soke made a mistake in his lecture, a student displaying it in his website (even with the soke's authorization) is a terrible error. This
    was pointed months ago, but the responsible for the site continue to display this information. If he was so concerned with "Japanese duty, protocol and obligation", he would not expose Imai Soke's memories.

    Gosho Sensei was Imai Soke's teacher. Today, Gosho Sensei has his own line and preserves Aoki Soke's teachings. End of history. There is no need to attack Gosho Sensei. Doing this is stupid, because it put in doubt the legitimacy of Imai Soke and therefore, Mr. Iwami Toshio.

    Sidharta Rezende

  • #2
    Methinks this will be a tough sell in this particular forum, as Watkin sensei is very highly regarded. Who are YOU?

    Comment


    • #3
      Sidharta,

      Don't you even START!

      You got banned over there because you stirred up trouble on purpose.

      The threads were deleted because you were giving out incorrect information and were and are, trying very hard to discredit Hyaku-sensei.

      You are not a representative of the Ryu anymore than your teacher is. So, please keep your mouth shut!

      You have absolutely NO right to come over here just to argue some more about this and cause more stupid bickering on purpose.

      I am asking for this thread to be locked right away. Do not start a new one after it is. You caused trouble here on this issue a couple years ago here, and you need to just stop this nonsense.

      One more peep and I imagine you'll be banned here, too. I for one, would be very happy if that happened! I'm sick of you going after Hyaku-sensei and the rest of the HNIR people.

      Haven't you got anything else better to do?? Please, just go do whatever it is you do, and just leave them alone!

      I'm letting Hyaku-sensei know about this thread.
      (Since I already owe him a pm anyway.)

      Kaoru

      Comment


      • #4
        Lady,

        My objective, here and there, was not cause trouble or try to discredit anyone. People asked about Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. The answer provided by Mr. Colin had wrong and offensive information (such as saying that Gosho sensei gave himself a Menkyo Kaiden).
        This forum is open to everyone and is a reference in internet. I chose to discuss it here because it's a open forun and I have nothing to hide.
        Why should I be banned and this thread locked? Because what I am telling trouble people who you like? All my statements are true. If you have doubt, why don't you ask Imai or Kiyonaga Sokes's families when he started practicing Niten ichi Ryu and who was his teacher? They all live in the same town that Gosho sensei.

        As for the question by Mr. Hunter, I am Sidharta Rezende, I practice Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu in Brazil with Sensei Jorge Kishikawa, student of Gosho Sensei wich was cited in the e-budo thread.

        Sidharta Rezende

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sidharta View Post
          As for the question by Mr. Hunter, I am Sidharta Rezende, I practice Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu in Brazil with Sensei Jorge Kishikawa, student of Gosho Sensei wich was cited in the e-budo thread.
          Well...I'd say Watkin sensei has the credibility advantage here. No sale, I'm afraid.

          Comment


          • #6
            Niten Institute is a controversial subject that has been discussed here before. I'll allow this thread to continue for a bit, so long as it remains civilised.

            Comment


            • #7
              Ah..Niten Institute... 'nuff said.

              Comment


              • #8
                Mr. Gendzwill

                Niten Institute was covered by Kendo Nippon last year. If after reading that anyone still has comments to do, this is not the right place.

                I believe that the subject here is very different of the one discussed in the mentioned thread and I'd like to keep that subject. I agree that it would be good if it remains civilized.

                Sidharta Rezende

                Comment


                • #9
                  im not very knowledgable of who died when, so ill leave scott or colin to answer that one about folk from your ha training before imai sensei

                  the whole institution and patent thing is something even i am aware of vaguely.
                  do you have photos or a link to the club at all?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sidharta,

                    It seems you are making a lot of accusations, but you don't state any sources for your information. Did you get this information from Mr. Kishikawa, from Mr. Gosho?

                    There also seem to be some inconsistencies in what you write.

                    Wasn't Mr Kishikawa claiming to be a student of Imai soke not long ago? Aren't you now discrediting him after he has passed away?

                    This kind of discussion would not be well recieved in most koryu circles in Japan. Raising these kind of questions is taboo, especially in a public forum.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rottunpunk View Post

                      the whole institution and patent thing is something even i am aware of vaguely.

                      Wasn't that patent issue in Argentina?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        probably, my jography is crap, along with my memory

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Mr. Bradshaw

                          The source was Gosho Sensei and other senseis of the ryu.
                          I know that this kind of discussion is not usual or appreciated. Please note that I don't like it either. I'd prefer to be doing more productive things.
                          But a serious accusation is to say that a 88 years respectable gentleman made himself a license. Worse if this person was your teacher's teacher.
                          Please tell me what inconsistencies you see and explain. English is not my primary language, as you certainly have noticed.

                          Sidharta Rezende

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What's the point of this? You weren't there at the time, and neither were the members of this forum. There's no point whatsoever telling us this and no way of knowing who is "right"...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sidharta View Post
                              Lady,

                              My objective, here and there, was not cause trouble or try to discredit anyone. People asked about Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu.
                              Then why are you here again? You got banned and the threads deleted on e-budo because you didn't know when to stop. I feel that you do have an agenda, or, you'd leave this be.

                              The answer provided by Mr. Colin had wrong and offensive information (such as saying that Gosho sensei gave himself a Menkyo Kaiden).
                              Can you even prove you are correct? You sure do talk alot, but you've never even provided legitimate and tangible
                              proof that anything is untrue. Hyaku-sensei wouldn't say something if it wasn't true.

                              I find it amazing that you still haven't figured out yet that Hyaku-sensei knows Imai-soke personally and is ALSO a very senior student of his-the most senior, if I remember right. And, Hyaku-sensei also knew the previous soke personally, as well.
                              So, you tell me how he could possibly lie when he knows both so personally. It's not possible. Hyaku-sensei wouldn't lie about anything having to do with the ryu, or anything else. That I know for sure.

                              This forum is open to everyone and is a reference in internet. I chose to discuss it here because it's a open forun and I have nothing to hide.
                              Yes, it's an open forum. However, it isn't for your personal use, to try to go after a well-respected sensei or ryu. Nor is it available for you to use it in order for you to continue a discussion from another forum just because you got banned and your threads deleted there and now you are upset about it.

                              You already had your say about this in the thread Neil-sensei provided above. So, in my view, I consider this subject a done deal and quite finished here, as well. I think others might agree.

                              Why should I be banned and this thread locked?
                              Why should the thread be locked? Because you don't know when to stop and all you do is go after ryu members and make claims you can't(won't?) prove.

                              I never said you should be banned, if you'll read my post again. I said:

                              I imagine you'll be banned here, too.
                              But, I notice the only thing you ever post about, is this subject, and complain. So, why shouldn't you be banned? It's an honest question.

                              Because what I am telling trouble people who you like? All my statements are true.
                              If they are so true why have you never provided legitimate and tangible evidence when asked?

                              If you have doubt, why don't you ask Imai or Kiyonaga Sokes's families when he started practicing Niten ichi Ryu and who was his teacher? They all live in the same town that Gosho sensei.
                              Hyaku-sensei knows the real answer unlike you. He knows Imai-soke personally! He already explained it on e-budo. You refused to listen. As usual.

                              Thing is, I have a feeling you won't stop until you win. So, this discussion will ultimately go nowhere, making this thread unproductive and useless.

                              I know for a fact that he's sick of this whole thing. Just go away and do what you do and stop this nonsense please.

                              Kaoru

                              Comment

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