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  • Questions about Instituto Niten

    Hi am a new kendo practicioner, i live in mexico but i am brasilian and one day i bumped with some niten publicity and i was very happy to know that something like that existed outside japan. But until a few days i started no search in forums opinions of instituto niten, and i found some things in this forum that really surprised me. I dont wanto to start a discution or something i just want to know the thruth, for example is it truth that niten students have to buy their equipment from niten or kendo online obligatory, why is this, i personally dont see any problem of where someone gets its equipment as long as its adecuated. Also i want to ask, if Sensei Kishikawa practices all those styles, does he has a graduation in everyone of those, and if only a menkyo kaiden is authorized to pass knowledge then shouldt he be a menkyo kaiden in every style in order to teach it? as i already stated am new in these kendo and kenjustsu subject so i dont understand nor pretend to to know more. Also i read that you can become a "coordenador" after 1 year of practice, but for example in kendo you need like 2 or 3 years to become a shodan, so i see kind of weird that a 1 year practicioner can already teach others, because i consider it just too few time of practice, again i can be wrong, so please correct me if i am.

    Finally i would like to know what the CBK thinks about Kishikawa sensei because, if they support him that would stop all the claims. Well thats about it, i considered myself kind of a student of Kishikawa sensei because although i coudnt attend to a instituto niten since i dont live in brazil, i would always see its web page and get his books, and i wanted to go to brazil to study there the styles they teach, but this things that i have read really disapointed me and i would really like to know the thruth. Please not only Administration of Niten but everybody make an opinion, i think everyone wants to know the reasons and motives of those questions and if its a set up for fools then to be warned.

    Thanks

  • #2
    Kishikawa? Niten Institute?

    ...

    I dont think Kishikawa has a fan-club here on KW...quite the opposite. Kishikawas henchmen has gone on various martial arts forums trying to push their own version of who is leading the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu.

    If you ask me, I wouldnt touch anything Kishikawa does with a 10 foot pole.

    Comment


    • #3
      Many teachers make a living from budo and quite a few insist on their students buying everything through them so they maximise their profits.

      Some teachers practice for a while, discover that they want a menkyo before they have earned it, fall out with the teacher when it is not given, find another teacher who will give them a menkyo and set about on a campaign of hate and slander on the net to discredit the previous teacher once he has passed away.

      I'm sure none of the above applies to anyone on this thread though.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by kenichi View Post
        Hi am a new kendo practicioner, i live in mexico but i am brasilian and one day i bumped with some niten publicity and i was very happy to know that something like that existed outside japan. But until a few days i started no search in forums opinions of instituto niten, and i found some things in this forum that really surprised me. I dont wanto to start a discution or something i just want to know the thruth, for example is it truth that niten students have to buy their equipment from niten or kendo online obligatory, why is this, i personally dont see any problem of where someone gets its equipment as long as its adecuated. Also i want to ask, if Sensei Kishikawa practices all those styles, does he has a graduation in everyone of those, and if only a menkyo kaiden is authorized to pass knowledge then shouldt he be a menkyo kaiden in every style in order to teach it? as i already stated am new in these kendo and kenjustsu subject so i dont understand nor pretend to to know more. Also i read that you can become a "coordenador" after 1 year of practice, but for example in kendo you need like 2 or 3 years to become a shodan, so i see kind of weird that a 1 year practicioner can already teach others, because i consider it just too few time of practice, again i can be wrong, so please correct me if i am.

        Finally i would like to know what the CBK thinks about Kishikawa sensei because, if they support him that would stop all the claims. Well thats about it, i considered myself kind of a student of Kishikawa sensei because although i coudnt attend to a instituto niten since i dont live in brazil, i would always see its web page and get his books, and i wanted to go to brazil to study there the styles they teach, but this things that i have read really disapointed me and i would really like to know the thruth. Please not only Administration of Niten but everybody make an opinion, i think everyone wants to know the reasons and motives of those questions and if its a set up for fools then to be warned.

        Thanks
        I think you should just read the threads on the Niten Institute. They would answer your questions quite well. Suffice it to say, Kishikawa is not qualified, nor does he have menkyo to teach HNIR, Suio Ryu and whatever else he claims. And, you would be well advised to stay far away from them.

        Here are threads to read:

        Instituto Niten

        Kendo/kenjutsu dojo in Brazil

        There are a couple more, but these should help you enough, I think.

        Btw, just because you have read their books and viewed their website does not mean you are a student of the Niten Institute. You said you are in Mexico, so that's not possible to be a student of the IN. There are legitimate kendo dojos in Mexico. You do belong to one of them right, seeing as you said you are a new kendo student? So, imho, you should respect your current sensei and not bother with McDojo like this.

        Hope this helped!

        Kaoru

        Comment


        • #5
          Kendo/kenjutsu dojo in Brazil

          There are a couple more, but these should help you enough, I think.

          Btw, just because you have read their books and viewed their website does not mean you are a student of the Niten Institute. You said you are in Mexico, so that's not possible to be a student of the IN. There are legitimate kendo dojos in Mexico. You do belong to one of them right, seeing as you said you are a new kendo student? So, imho, you should respect your current sensei and not bother with McDojo like this.

          Hope this helped!

          Kaoru[/QUOTE]

          Kaoru made a big point on it

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kaoru View Post
            I think you should just read the threads on the Niten Institute. They would answer your questions quite well. Suffice it to say, Kishikawa is not qualified, nor does he have menkyo to teach HNIR, Suio Ryu and whatever else he claims. And, you would be well advised to stay far away from them.
            Not to play devils advocate, but it seems Kishikawa has some connections with Kaminoda Tsunemori Sensei of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo. The latter has visited for teaching seminares with the former. That doesnt necessarily mean that Kishikawa has a Menkyo in SMR-Jodo, but if Kaminoda Sensei hang out with Kishikawa than that counts for alot. (Kaminoda Sensei aint no McDojo dude)

            Comment


            • #7
              just curious

              just out of pure curiosity,

              is instituto niten a large organization in brazil? how does it compare to the brazilian kendo federation? is there a certain amount of overlapping in the hierarchy of the two organizations? and the question that i am most interested is, since the next world's will be held in brazil, and there will be certain amount of media attention, will the brazilian media be able to discriminate the difference between instituto niten stuff and kendo?

              (i've read the threads, but the e-budo ones are gone, and the KW threads are a bit old)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Fred27 View Post
                Not to play devils advocate, but it seems Kishikawa has some connections with Kaminoda Tsunemori Sensei of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo. The latter has visited for teaching seminares with the former. That doesnt necessarily mean that Kishikawa has a Menkyo in SMR-Jodo, but if Kaminoda Sensei hang out with Kishikawa than that counts for alot. (Kaminoda Sensei aint no McDojo dude)
                The problem with Kishikawa is, he talks a lot, but does not do.

                Kaminoda-sensei may not be a McDojo person, but just hanging with him does not mean the guy(Kishikawa) has any decent training in Jodo or is qualified to teach it. He may have just gone to a couple seminars and gotten a photo taken or whatever and had dinner with him or something. I think Hyaku-sensei would know much more about this. Anyway, with all the lies this guy told about Hyaku-sensei and how he's had so little HNIR instruction it's not even funny but lies, and says he's had oodles of it, and etc, I'm not willing to believe a word he says. He's not even authorised to teach the other swordarts he's claimed he can teach.

                Oh yeah. Taking seminars does not mean a person is qualified to teach. That's like having only a lesson here and there. That's not good enough to have had enough instruction to teach. He'd needed to have real training in a dojo on a weekly basis for a long time.

                You know, Kaminoda-sensei could be asked if the Jodo qualifications were true if someone bothered to ask him about it. I'd be willing to bet it isn't. But, until then, we don't know for sure for that one.

                Kaoru

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nonamehandle View Post
                  just out of pure curiosity,

                  is instituto niten a large organization in brazil?
                  It's huge. He's spread at least 40 of his McDojos all over Brazil so far.

                  how does it compare to the brazilian kendo federation?
                  It doesn't compare. The Niten Institute is McDojo and not recognised by the IKF. and the Brazilian Kendo Federation is a legitimate organisation that is a member of the IKF.

                  is there a certain amount of overlapping in the hierarchy of the two organizations?
                  I would think not. That's because they are two different things entirely.

                  and the question that i am most interested is, since the next world's will be held in brazil, and there will be certain amount of media attention, will the brazilian media be able to discriminate the difference between instituto niten stuff and kendo?
                  I don't think they can compete in the WKF since they are not an IKF federation. Only IKF affiliated organisations can compete as far as I'm aware. His McDojo stuff certainly does not qualify. So, there won't be crap involved. And so, the media won't need to figure out which is what.

                  (i've read the threads, but the e-budo ones are gone, and the KW threads are a bit old)
                  Even if they are old, the truth is the truth. If you want more, just ask Hyaku-sensei. He'll tell you the same thing.

                  The threads on e-budo still exist except about one or two Hyaku-sensei deleted because Sidharta got annoying and a little nasty. Hyaku-sensei finally got sick of the nonsense. You can find some of the threads still existing by typing in the search area:

                  Niten Institute
                  -brings up several threads.

                  Kishikawa-brings up a couple others as well.

                  Kaoru

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    we have a niten-stupid-stuff also here in chile. one thing to do: don't pay attention.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kaoru View Post
                      Kaminoda-sensei may not be a McDojo person, but just hanging with him does not mean the guy(Kishikawa) has any decent training in Jodo or is qualified to teach it.
                      I agree, it doesn't, but we cant dismiss the possibility that he might have some legit connection. At least not before we've heard something more concrete pro/against.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hello, folks, I'm kinda new here in Kendo World and hope you all forgive me for my bad english. I really enjoy the forum but I'm not used to write in it...mostly because I don't have time and my english isn't so good.

                        Well, I have trained in Instituto Niten for a few time. Everything is "good" (despite everything people already discussed here and I will talk about it) but the major problem is one: money. They charge in a abuse way for everything. First of all, you must buy all equipment from a store called "kendoonline", which is owned by Instituto Niten (of course they don't tell you Kendoonline is owned by them but they say it's their "official supplier"); second, you must pay taxes for your membership in "Confederao Brasileira de Kobud" (Brazilian Kobudo Confederation), which Instituto Niten is the only member and Jorge Kishikawa is the president (!!!); third, they charge alot for the classes (they say it's the same in Japan, where all sensei charge for the classes!!). If you know the brazilian reality you'll see they charge a lot of money...

                        Like an business, they use the media (newspapers, tv, internet) to spread dojos all over the country. They send the senior members to teach (although most of them don't have the knowledge to teach - some have olny a few years of trainning some have more than 10 but...) and Jorge Kishikawa goes once or twice a year to every city's dojo.

                        They claim to teach kenjutsu but no one evey saw the papers (licences) nor any Sensei/Shihan/Menkyo or whatever came to Brazil and said Kishikawa is "the official representative of the ryu". They always have an excuse: "Imai wont come because the other sensei died", "Kishikawa is student under Imai Massayuki", "The senseis are fighting for the succession, Imai were expelt from the ryu and are now telling lies to the world", etc.

                        Kaminoda Sensei came one time with other senseis from Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo but every student had to pay like five hundred reais (something about 250 dollars) for 2 hours class. Those who were aloud and, of course, could pay, traveled with them across the country. Never knew if they teached us joDO (since Jorge Kishikawa's parents teache kenDO, joDO and iaiDO) ou Shindo Muso Ryu (kobudo)...and I think there is a great difference!

                        Since I couldn't pay for the trainning I was left aside. They offered me a "scholarship" (don't know if this is the apropriate word) but in fact I had to work for them in exchange of the trainning. To be sincere, they work like a cult: the students must read a book called "shin hagakure", which has the fundamentals of the Niten Institute, they are prohibited to join forums in the internet, orkut, and others, they are trained to always say "Hai"...without think..."Say hai first...think latter"....

                        I have many other things to say...but don't have time..if you want to talk about it send me a private message.

                        Thanks for the attencion.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          thanks

                          thanks for the info kenshin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Kenshin,
                            Originally posted by Kenshin666 View Post
                            Hello, folks, I'm kinda new here in Kendo World and hope you all forgive me for my bad english. I really enjoy the forum but I'm not used to write in it...mostly because I don't have time and my english isn't so good.
                            Not at all - your English is excellent.

                            Thanks for the insight - and sorry to hear you had to suffer all that.

                            One little point:

                            Originally posted by Kenshin666 View Post
                            third, they charge alot for the classes (they say it's the same in Japan, where all sensei charge for the classes!!). If you know the brazilian reality you'll see they charge a lot of money...
                            I can assure you this is not the case. When HNIR guys and girls travel to Japan for keiko, he takes time off work and uses up his scheduled days off to teach us and then refuses any kind of recompense or fee for his time and effort!

                            To emphasise Instituto Niten's money issues further, I will mention professional (paid) teachers who we bring to the UK to teach us various other JSA. Their flights and transport are paid for, they are housed, fed and watered and they receive a fee for their time teaching us. End of. There's no paying for grades, forced-equipment-buying or other extortion... and these are THE top boys of their respective arts.

                            Why do self-proclaimed masters (who are nothing of the sort) turn budo into a money-grabbing scheme?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks Scott, but I still think it's hard to people really understand what I mean. ha-ha!

                              About all the sensei that don't charge for their teachings, this is something I discovered after I left Niten. It's hard to find any other dojo/scholls/sensei/groups because Niten advertising is very agressive. If you google "kendo" (in portuguese) you'll only find websites connected with them...in terms of "McDojo" they are maybe the biggest group in the world with almost 1000 students in Brazil and South America.

                              They were able to publish books, make appearences in the media (local and nacional), and control the internet. The members of CBK (Brazilian Kendo Confederation) just decided to ignore Kishikawa...I fear that in 2008, with the International Championship in So Paulo, they may use the media (that can't make a difference between Kendo and what Kishikawa teaches) to improve the business.

                              It's very sad to the image of marcial arts in Brazil, which has the largest japanese comunity outside Japan.

                              Thanks you all!

                              Comment

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