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  • Naginata Questions

    I just had two maybe stupid questions

    the naginata was replaced by the yari , im guessing because the yari was a supirior weapon ? so why how come you are practicing with naginatas instead of yaris ?

    and almost every japanes martial art has a "do" or "jutsu" in the end , how come naginata doesent have a do or jutsu ?

    thanx in advance

  • #2
    1:Naginata were not replaced by the yari. They just became fazed out over time because of fire arms. Although even more rare than naginata, you can learn sojutsu (yari). Check out: www.scnf.org or www.naginata.org ;pretty good reading material on the history and development of naginata.

    2:I rarely hear naginata-do. Maybe because it just sounds funny. However koryuu naginata is often called naginata-jutsu. Check out: www.koryu.com they have a list of koryu naginata styles. Also has some sojutsu schools.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Khabbi
      I just had two maybe stupid questions

      the naginata was replaced by the yari , im guessing because the yari was a supirior weapon ? so why how come you are practicing with naginatas instead of yaris ?

      and almost every japanes martial art has a "do" or "jutsu" in the end , how come naginata doesent have a do or jutsu ?

      thanx in advance
      "Do" means "way" in japanese, implying that there is a spiritual aspect to the art.
      "Jutsu" means "art" or "techniques", and naginata should be called naginata-jutsu, although it is never caught on. its like the way people say karate instead of karate-do like they should.

      P.S: Terry pratchett is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Answers

        Originally posted by Khabbi
        I just had two maybe stupid questions

        the naginata was replaced by the yari , im guessing because the yari was a supirior weapon ? so why how come you are practicing with naginatas instead of yaris ?

        and almost every japanes martial art has a "do" or "jutsu" in the end , how come naginata doesent have a do or jutsu ?

        thanx in advance
        1. Battlefield tactics changed. With more infantry on the battlefield, it was too close to effectively wield naginata, and training for large groups is much easier in Sojutsu than in Naginata-jutsu. Home defense by samurai women still used the Naginata. Also the Sohei (warrior monks) continued to carry Naginata.

        2. Prior to WWII, Naginata-do was the term used for Naginata training, apparently for Koryu and the pre-Atarashii Naginata taught to girls and young women as part of Phys. Ed. in grade school and high school. With the defeat of Imperial Japan in 1945 and the reformulation of Naginata in the early 1950's, it was decided that the term "Naginata-do" was a shameful reminder to the women leaders (Naginata-do was a women's art while Kendo and Judo were men's arts at that time) of Budo being used as a political tool of an imperialistic state, so the term "Atarashii ("new," also "fresh") Naginata" was coined to indicate the break away from the negative connotations of the former "Naginata-do." I suspect that when the last of that generation of Japanese women dies off, the term "Naginata-do" will come back into vogue. I personally use it in unofficial contexts.
        Last edited by R A Sosnowski; 1st February 2004, 11:16 PM.

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        • #5
          Hello Raymond!
          Originally posted by R A Sosnowski
          Prior to WWII, Naginata-do was the term used for Naginata training.
          .
          I have heard that the Monbushu (School) Naginata was constructed during and not prior WWII. Are you saying that something called Naginata-do existed before WWII?

          It is also funny that Koryu Naginata-jutsu probably carries most of what gaijin refer to as "do" but is still called "jutsu" in Japan.

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          • #6
            Ans: Yes.

            Hello Jacob,

            Originally posted by Jakob Ryngen
            Hello Raymond!
            .
            I have heard that the Monbushu (School) Naginata was constructed during and not prior WWII. Are you saying that something called Naginata-do existed before WWII?

            It is also funny that Koryu Naginata-jutsu probably carries most of what gaijin refer to as "do" but is still called "jutsu" in Japan.
            Yes. You are indeed correct about Monbushu Naginata - it was officially adopted in 1943.

            I have several old Naginata text books. For example, I have a rare 1943, 5th edition of Tendo Ryu, which uses "Naginata-do" in the title - that same title is on the 1939 1st edition I am told. I have a pre-WWII (late 1930's I am told) training manual for "Naginata-do."

            It's indeed funny about the "-do"/"-jutsu" debate. Apparently, during the Showa era prior to WWII, it was fashionable to substitute "-do" for "-jutsu" in the name of your art - for example the last soke of Shindo Muso Ryu, Shimizu Takaji, renamed the art Jodo from Jojutsu, but did not change the way that the art was practiced. His student, Kaminoda Tsunenori, from whom my training comes, still teaches the art as his teacher did - we call it Jodo, but it's really still Jojutsu in practice. The Japanese apparently don't worry about such things.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by R A Sosnowski
              I have several old Naginata text books. For example, I have a rare 1943, 5th edition of Tendo Ryu, which uses "Naginata-do" in the title - that same title is on the 1939 1st edition I am told. I have a pre-WWII (late 1930's I am told) training manual for "Naginata-do."
              Really interesting! I thougth Tendo Ryu only used the term "naginata-jutsu". How did you get your hands on such rare books?
              His student, Kaminoda Tsunenori, from whom my training comes, still teaches the art as his teacher did - we call it Jodo, but it's really still Jojutsu in practice.
              You train for... him? Respect!
              The Japanese apparently don't worry about such things.
              Nah... I guess they can't be wrong about that...

              Comment


              • #8
                Various.

                Originally posted by Jakob Ryngen
                Really interesting! I thougth Tendo Ryu only used the term "naginata-jutsu". How did you get your hands on such rare books?
                I take it that in the early 1950's, when Tendo Ryu was being taught again, they went back to using the term "Naginata-jutsu."

                As far as acquiring the book, I got a referral from someone who had recently returned from Japan about an American still in Japan (at that time) who acquired old Japanese Budo books from various Japanese dealers. I made contact and told him what I wanted. We had agreed upon max price for any edition in fair condition sight unseen, otherwise he would contact me if he found something more expensive. In a very rare stroke of luck, he managed to find a copy in a mere three weeks (he was expecting more like 6 to 12 months!). It was not a 1st or 2nd edition, but a 5th edition - at this point during WWII there was a paper shortage in Japan so the pages are quite thin. It was within my price limit and within 6 weeks I had it.

                Not all requests went so fast or were successful. A search for a rare book about Chinese archery translated into Japanese turned up nothing. My contact has since left Japan.

                Originally posted by Jakob Ryngen
                You train for... him [Kaminoda Tsunenori]? Respect!
                Yes. He taught 5 annual Gasshuku in the US between 1996 and 2000, all of which I attended. A small group of us have maintained contact with him since then. Our group leader goes over several times a year to Japan to train. I plan to travel to Japan to train next year if I am recommended for Oku-iri. When he was here [USA] last in 2000, I was presented a pre-Oku certificate for Shoden (Omote) from Kaminoda-s.
                Last edited by R A Sosnowski; 3rd February 2004, 01:28 AM.

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                • #9
                  isnt yari used against cavalry? my knowledge of this comes from shogun total war... so it might not be accurate...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    History.

                    Originally posted by mystic_kendoka
                    isnt yari used against cavalry? my knowledge of this comes from shogun total war... so it might not be accurate...
                    Yes, during a part of the history. Battlefield tactics and the so-called rules-of-engagement changed, and so did the weapons used. See post #4 in this thread.

                    Naginata were used primarily in the 1200's and 1300's, and on into the 1400's. The Yari rose to importance in the early 1300's after the Mongul invasions. After the mid-1400's, the Yari began to replace the Naginata in the large groups of conscripted infantry. However, the Naginata continued to be used in warfare, albeit in rather small numbers, right up to the beginning of the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1603.

                    HTH.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by R A Sosnowski
                      Yes. He taught 5 annual Gasshuku in the US between 1996 and 2000, all of which I attended. A small group of us have maintained contact with him since then. Our group leader goes over several times a year to Japan to train. I plan to travel to Japan to train next year if I am recommended for Oku-iri. When he was here [USA] last in 2000, I was presented a pre-Oku certificate for Shoden (Omote) from Kaminoda-s.
                      I don't want to hijack this thread, so please check the jodo forum.

                      thanks - Will

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Weapons of Class

                        Actually, the yari was around centuries before naginata, it's just a basic (but well-made spear). The difference between them is a class issue. While yari were employed by Samurai, and check out The Hidden Fortress film by Akira Kurosawa for an awesome yari duel, but Naginata was never used by peasant and ashigaru troops, it was an upper-class weapon.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by moonblade
                          Actually, the yari was around centuries before naginata, it's just a basic (but well-made spear). The difference between them is a class issue. While yari were employed by Samurai, and check out The Hidden Fortress film by Akira Kurosawa for an awesome yari duel, but Naginata was never used by peasant and ashigaru troops, it was an upper-class weapon.
                          Hm, I never liked that yari duel myself but that is a matter of taste. You will have to back that "never" up to convince me however. Post 16th century naginata was a very common weapon.

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                          • #14
                            From what i've read and been told the naginata was replaced by the yari more because of ease of use and training mosre so than because it was a superior weapon. I know many who still believe that the naginata is the best battlefield weapon due to its flexibility and lethality when used in trained hands. Its alot harder to teach someone naginata cuts than stabs and pokes with a spear (yes i realize that there is much more to sojutsu but for the most part this is what the ashugiri would have learned).

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                            • #15
                              <<From what i've read and been told the naginata was replaced by the yari more because of ease of use and training mosre so than because it was a superior weapon.>>

                              Am I talking to myself? The Yari and the Bow were the primary weapons of the Samurai before the Gempei war, (1100s A.D.) with the sword a distance second. Read tales of the warriors of this time and they all talk about their abilities with the bow. The naginata wasn't even a gleam in an armorers eye at this time.

                              When was the yari supposed to replace the naginata anyway? What's the timeframe?


                              Hey, Jakob, what about the duel bothered you? And I'll use never as I've never heard about it, but if you or anybody else have some documents or links to ukeio (sp) prints, please present them.

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