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  • isshu-jiai

    Any tips for the kendoka side of things? Maai is quite different, right? I'm thinking to entice an attack and step inside it as it comes, but that's a WAG. I suppose taking jodan is probably playing to their game?

    I'm hoping to get a chance to play Tanaka-sensei in Edmonton, perhaps I can stretch the match out for 20 or 30 seconds before she creams me.

  • #2
    Never done isshu jiai myself but if I were doing kendo I would bait sune (with my right leg) and just do sune nuki waza (the kendo version). <- Basically just lift your leg up to aviod sune when your opponent strikes, since you've got it up there you might as well fumikomi. Plus there men is WIDE open when striking sune.
    Oh yeah, jodan would leave you very open, stick with chuudan.


    • #3
      Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
      Any tips for the kendoka side of things? Maai is quite different, right? I'm thinking to entice an attack and step inside it as it comes, but that's a WAG. I suppose taking jodan is probably playing to their game?

      I'm hoping to get a chance to play Tanaka-sensei in Edmonton, perhaps I can stretch the match out for 20 or 30 seconds before she creams me.
      Ha. I just talked to Tanaka Sensei about this today. I'll give a report later tonight on what we talked about. I'll let her know you've been warned.



      • #4
        from naginata side...


        my view is from the naginata side...
        -i m really anoyed when the kendoka is close to me... the kendoka have a good chance to beet the naginata ka if he play close combat , if he just follow the naginataka( don t let him take distence!!!!!!)
        -make harai to enter the kamae (harai/men , harai kote/men...)
        -watch out for your sune
        -last advice : watch isshu jiai videos ^^




        • #5
          On the other hand kendo ka have to understands what naginata ka are use to.
          for example in kendo you're use to do men while moving backward, from a close position. This is unusual for naginata, and I've been surprised by this in my shiai in San Jose.


          • #6
            Get as close as you can as quick as you can. Seme in from gedan to block any quick sune strikes, and try for a men. The naginata may try a strike from hasso, so go straight for the bottom kote, you may not get it, but you'll limit their options by getting in close.

            When doing a sune nuki men, don't lift your foot straight up, as you'll get hit in the ankle - and that REALLY hurts, but sweep your heel back, so your knee doesn't go up. Your body should come forwards for the men naturally after that.

            From tsuba-zeriai, the naginata can strike your sune with the butt end of the weapon, so be weary of that, but hiki-men is always a good one to do, especially after pushing them around a bit and changing direction as you strike.

            If you think you can get it in, try sune yourself, orishiki-sune (down on one knee as you strike)

            Jodan's the best way to go down in 10 seconds flat!

            The best advice is just to keep moving around and getting in their face, screwing up their maai. If you hang back, you'll get creamed.

            Good luck and let us know how you get on!



            • #7
              Phil sent me a link to a few videos. They seem to support what you say, get in close - the naginata folks have a hard time with close maai. The sune attacks in the videos I've seen looked kind of slow - I'm sure Tanaka-sensei will demonstrate what a fast one looks like...


              • #8

                Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
                Any tips for the kendoka side of things? Maai is quite different, right? I'm thinking to entice an attack and step inside it as it comes, but that's a WAG. I suppose taking jodan is probably playing to their game?
                Kendo-ka need to realize that in Isshu Jiai you absolutely have to worry about Datotsu below the waist. Gedan no Kamae, a Kamae unknown in Kendo Shiai and Jigeiko, is the recommended intercept for a Sune-uchi (shin strike); nuki waza is even better as it allows for a prepositioning of a counter-strike.

                Sune-uchi along with Men-uchi are the dominant strikes, but do not rule out Kote-uchi, Do-uchi and Tsuki.

                Both ends of the Naginata can be used for Sune-uchi - there is no safety in Tsubazeriai.

                Turnabout is fair play. The Kendo-ka does have the Sune as a Datotsu in Isshu Jiai. Getting there is the problem - you'll have to go down on one knee, which, unfortunately, will leave a big Suki (expect to receive Men-uchi for your efforts).

                Isshu Jiai is not Kendo Shiai - a real change in mind set is required.

                I'm hoping to get a chance to play Tanaka-sensei in Edmonton, perhaps I can stretch the match out for 20 or 30 seconds before she creams me.


                • #9

                  (something els)
                  when you go to gedan watch out for tsuki (look the video "isshu jiai" in the downloads section) ^^ hh

                  Good luck neil!




                  • #10
                    Sorry for the delay.

                    Tanaka Sensei did say that tsubazeriai is a tough position for the naginata person. Watch out for tsuki when closing distance. You might even get a mune tsuki to keep you in your place. She said that gedan is the surest way to get you men and tsuki hit. You'd probably be better served by a kamae that is parallel to the ground. Like the crowd has said, watch out for your sune. It will get hit if you don't take it seriously. Keep in mind that the naginata person can hit sune from waki, hasso or chudan kamae. Sune adds a new meaning to nidan waza. How about men-sune or tsuki-sune(Tanaka san likes tsuki-sune ).

                    Since the naginata person isn't going to square up to you like in kendo, you'll probably have a harder then normal time hitting tsuki.

                    She said that a lot of times kendoka don't hit sune properly. This has resulted in lots of knee bruises for her. It's a pet peeve so try and hit the suneate.

                    Katatezuki might be something to try.

                    She also said that there is a jodan variation that works well against kendoka. I'm not even going to try and describe it here. Just ask her to show it to you.

                    I'm going to send her email reminding her to bring some t-shirts and tenugui and warn her you are coming.

                    Hope this rant helps. Get a video and let us watch!

                    Thanks and Good Luck,


                    • #11
                      I did some isshu-shiai vs kendoka a few days ago. Unfortunately, sune-strike is not such a good strike as it used to be. The kendoka has catched up with it. My main attack vs kendoka would be tsuki now.


                      • #12
                        Me and W.Suzuki practice with Kendo-ka for our Naginata training.
                        Kendo-ka are exparts of Onoha-ittoryu or Niten-ichiryu(nitou ryu).
                        They do'nt put on Suneate.
                        It becomes very good practice because they has no Suneate.
                        So,We can learn for Ma-ai, Ri-ai,Ki-ai.and Seme(attack with the sprit).


                        • #13
                          Tanaka - 1000, Gendzwill - 2, maybe 3

                          Back from Edmontonchuk last night, had a great time at the seminar, thanks to Steph, Gerald, Derek and all the Edmonton club members plus guest instructors Okusa-sensei, Takagaki-sensei and Tanaka-sensei.

                          Had a chance for two isshu-jiai, once against Derek the local instructor and once against Tanaka-sensei. Derek is a big guy, a couple inches taller than me and fairly burly. He's nidan I think, so still not much experience. After watching other people against him, I concluded that staying outside at the naginata's natural maai was suicide, so I just charged inside his maai a lot and kept up the pressure. Once inside, men was pretty easy although I lost a few sune coming in. I hit quite a few men, some undefended, some negated by sune but I had a hard time telling if his sune would have counted or not (more later on that point).

                          Tanaka-sensei was a different story. I must say I really enjoyed meeting her, she's a great lady, very talkative, informative and quite blunt in expressing her opinions. She's also fairly short and also not so young anymore, so the very physical style I used against Derek was inappropriate. Instead I stayed more outside and tried to use nuki, harai and suriagi-waza against her. I got one harai-men that had nice timing but clanged off the mengane because I wasn't used to the longer maai to reach her men. I think I got a suriagi-men in there too, and one or two men where I stepped inside her maai. The nuki-men I tried were pretty experimental, I just count myself lucky that I didn't get swept in the process. I didn't attempt any kote and she wasn't wearing sune (not that I would have thought of trying sune). Meanwhile, I lost about 1000 sune and quite a few men stuck inside what I thought of as the Tanaka cuisinart. Several times I had to stop because I was just laughing too hard at how easily she was picking me apart. At one point as I passed her by, she did something or other with the shaft that pushed my off-balance and sent me spinning out of range - with a little more muscle, she could probably have thrown me.

                          One thing that really seperated Derek and Tanaka-sensei was the quality of the sune attack. When Derek hit me, I was unsure whether he had a good sune or not - I heard a little click, but didn't feel much. When Tanaka-sensei hit my sune, I knew for sure I'd lost the leg - it was very clear.

                          Watching her perform, I was impressed by the fluidity of the movement. She was very calm, and just switched from kamae to kamae, never moving too quickly, just smooth and nice timing. The attacks when they came were swift but not jerky, and ending with shibori and tenouchi to produce that very clear sharp cut.

                          It was a delightful experience, so much fun and I learned a lot. The fact that I couldn't really take it to Tanaka-sensei physically was a positive, not a negative - forced to take a more technical approach than I did with Derek, I felt I learned a lot more about what was required.

                          One thing that can only develop with practice would be the ability to perceive the sune attacks coming. As a kendoka, my awareness is really only my upper body, the rest doesn't matter. When the naginata swings low, it's out of my field of vision but that shouldn't matter - I should be able to connect the dots and be able to perform sune-nuki-men or similar waza. Can't do that now, simply not enough practice with that kind of attack.

                          There was a video made which I'm hoping to get a copy of, but if I get it I don't know if I'll post it. For one thing, I'd need Tanaka-sensei's permission and for another I look like crap - all my bad habits came back as I tried to figure out what to do with this small woman beating me up with a large stick. My only consolation (other than how much fun it was) was that Okusa-sensei had just as much difficulty with her as I did.


                          • #14
                            Hi Neil,

                            Thanks for the report. Glad to hear you survived. FWIW, you could have played a physical game against Tanaka sensei. She's seen more then her share of rough opponents. I should have told you to ask her about the kendoka that dropped his shinai and charged in trying to grapple her. Anyway, I'll let her know that you had a good time when I see her tomorrow.



                            • #15
                              I'm 6' tall and pushing 190, when I taiatari somebody they occasionally find themselves horizontal. Just not proper against a lady of her size, age and rank. Besides, I learned more the way it went. She hadn't actually intended to put her bogu on at all, but they talked her into a demonstration match against the visiting kendo sensei on Saturday and she enjoyed that one so much that she agreed to play several more on Sunday. Said she hadn't played kendoka in quite some time.

                              She mentioned that you had emailed her about me, but she didn't remember my name - just that it started with G and was long.