mittsu hoshi - question

Dear Forum Members,

I have a question regarding a samurai family crest by the name of "mittsu hoshi" if I spell it correctly.

I have read through the KW forums looking for similar threads and read the ones I found.

I checked the websites that you were recommending to each other as well, I have even found a similar crest to the one I am looking for (the Kamon of the Mori clan at http://www.samurai-archives.com/moriclan.html ) but the one I am looking for has the small dots above, and the line below).

Anybody has any idea: whether this crest exists and where I could find it?

Tnx in advance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bodaishin

Dear Forum Members,

I have a question regarding a samurai family crest by the name of "mittsu hoshi" if I spell it correctly.

[snip description]

Anybody has any idea: whether this crest exists and where I could find it?

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It exists, and its full name is "mitsuboshi ni hitotsubiki".

Thanks Philippe, it's been a great help.:)

OTOH, I may be the biggest rookie or dummie on the net; but the only close hit I found was this: http://before.ijf.org/general/mitsuboshi.html :confused2

I am planningh to prepare a small present for my best friend and as he was always very excited about this particular crest, I planned to i) find the 'real one' ii) find an explanation of its origin and/or meaning...

so, if you find the time and would be kind enough to bother with the thing a little more, I would greatly appreciate some more help on this

thanks in advance....

this one is quite good.

http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/buna_con.html

FYI The Mouri clan is described as "ichi monji mitsu hoshi", or "one stroke, three stars"...

Mingshi,

I certainly owe you a death match.. :-)))
thanks for the valuable info; although in a local aikido magazine, the 'translation' goes for the same crest as: "3 samurai 1 god". Is there any ground to such interpretation?

Mingshi -and all forum members possessing significant knowledge in Japanese lanuage/history.


In a recent article that appeared in the Hungarian Aikido Magazine, there is a short explanation of the various samurai crests. The title reads: "Famous Kamons in the history of Japan".

It enlists the follwoing crests:

Date masamune (take ni Suzume)
mittsu hosshi (three stars)
Manji (Buddhist kamon)
Oda Nabunaga (mko or mokko)
Fuji (Saotome Mitsugi)
Hishi (Takeda Shingen)
Aoi or Himawari (Tokugawa Ieasu)
Kiku (Tenno-Ke)
Umebachi

I wanted to attach a scan of the two pages of the referred article - so as to see the drwaings as well- but they were toooooo big :-(((

Regarding 'mitsu hossi" (now I know the name is in fact ichi monji mitsu hoshi - thanks to Mingshi) the article says:
"The one writing three starts crest was usually attributed to the daimyo and two the two ministers on the left and the right to him; therefore samurai used it in the same manner: three samurai and one god. It represents to faith of these to each other. All item has its own name within the crest, the most important being katsu (victory); therefore the crest became a symbol of braveness."

Well; it does not seem to be the same I found on various open sources on the Net; and I would kindly ask the honorable assembly to help me out on this issue.

tnx in advance...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bodaishin

Regarding 'mitsu hossi" (now I know the name is in fact ichi monji mitsu hoshi - thanks to Mingshi) the article says:
"

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To clarify "ichi monji mitsu hoshi" is the crest with the line above the three start.
The crest with three stars above the sinlge line is "mitsuboshi ni hitotsubiki" as noted by Philippe.

Unfortunately I have been unable to find any historical references or even simple descriptions of the mitsuboshi ni hitotsubiki crest that you were searching for. I was able to find quite a few illustrations of the crest. It seems to be quite similar to the (I think) Watanabe-no-hoshi. The system I am using at the moment prevents me from typing in Japanese so I can't confirm this. I could give some links to examples of these crests when I get home if you like.

acording to this page, the kamon youre looking for is widely used by families with the name WATANABE

http://www.asgy.co.jp/anglais/top10family/watanabe.html

in a different display of variations of the same kamon structure(mitsuboshi=three stars above a hitotsubiki=single stroke)

http://www.asgy.co.jp/anglais/classi...ture.html#hosi

maybe you have a friend named WATANABE who can shed more light on the exact meaning for it? hehehe

p.s. mingshi, you still owe me plenty deathmatches, and i still owe you something....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paburo

acording to this page, the kamon youre looking for is widely used by families with the name WATANABE

http://www.asgy.co.jp/anglais/top10family/watanabe.html

in a different display of variations of the same kamon structure(mitsuboshi=three stars above a hitotsubiki=single stroke)

http://www.asgy.co.jp/anglais/classi...ture.html#hosi

maybe you have a friend named WATANABE who can shed more light on the exact meaning for it? hehehe

p.s. mingshi, you still owe me plenty deathmatches, and i still owe you something....

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Thanks Pablo. Assuming that mitsboshi-ni-hitotsu-biki and Watanabe-boshi are the same thing got me somewhere.
Firstly, the assumption is probably correct. It is apparently reasonable to consider that the two kamon have the same lineage.

Watanabe-boshi was the kamon used by one of the sons of the Saga Emporer.
Seems the lineage went something like

Saga-Emperor
|
Minamoto Touru
|
Kawahara Noboru
|
Mita (?) Nin (?) I think female marries Watanabe somebody or other.....

People back in those days seemed not to pass on their names necessarily.

Seems to be the kamon of what's known as the Hanzo-ryuu Saga Gengi Watanabe lineage.

Not much help really....

As far as meaning goes, stars are connected with fate as they are in Western culture. Three stars are a symbol of victory. Three stars are also used to represent the Orion constellation.

c.f. http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/sizen/hoshi.htm

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/tajimamori/yk/sub10.htm is a good reference. I might have another look at it when I'm less tired. Maybe someone else might like to try.

Thanks to everyone for their posts, it's been a great help. Yes; I would be more than thankful for some additional links; mainly as with regards to the meaning (pls note I speak/read no Japanese)...

my general purpose with this is to clarify (as it has been said and widely commented in another thread regarding crests) whether it has a 'general' meaning and therefore could be used as a decoration in someone's home (similarly to an image that of Miamoto Musahi for instance - not with the purpose of stating that you would have any connection to him)

if - on the other hand - it bacomes obvious that it only belongs to XYZ family (forgive me for my ignorance) and has no such meaning; or that meaning is not clarified; I would rather refrain from presenting such a present to my beloved friend...

thank you again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bodaishin

Thanks to everyone for their posts, it's been a great help. Yes; I would be more than thankful for some additional links; mainly as with regards to the meaning (pls note I speak/read no Japanese)...

my general purpose with this is to clarify (as it has been said and widely commented in another thread regarding crests) whether it has a 'general' meaning and therefore could be used as a decoration in someone's home (similarly to an image that of Miamoto Musahi for instance - not with the purpose of stating that you would have any connection to him)

if - on the other hand - it bacomes obvious that it only belongs to XYZ family (forgive me for my ignorance) and has no such meaning; or that meaning is not clarified; I would rather refrain from presenting such a present to my beloved friend...

thank you again

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Hint for future posts: start with the question you actually want to ask.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bodaishin

Thanks Philippe, it's been a great help.:)

OTOH, I may be the biggest rookie or dummie on the net; but the only close hit I found was this: http://before.ijf.org/general/mitsuboshi.html :confused2

I am planningh to prepare a small present for my best friend and as he was always very excited about this particular crest, I planned to i) find the 'real one' ii) find an explanation of its origin and/or meaning...

so, if you find the time and would be kind enough to bother with the thing a little more, I would greatly appreciate some more help on this

thanks in advance....

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Darn awkward web interfaces. If this were a newsgroup or e-mail list, I'd probably have answered two days ago.

Anyhow, as at least one other person has pointed out, it seems likely that what you're looking at is actually Watanabe-boshi, which gets mentioned more often. If the line below the three circles is... um, "wavy" or "stylish" as opposed to straight, then its the Watanabe-boshi. If the line is a straight rectangle shape, then its the mitsuboshi ni hitotsubiki.

At any rate, that doesn't matter much for most of the rest of the information I've got. In all cases, the mitsuboshi, which means three stars, refers to three war deities associated with those stars in early Chinese thought, while the line, which is the character for "1", comes from battlefield distinctions such as "first spear" or "first to charge".

The above is the case regardless of whether you're looking at one of the mitsuboshi ichimonji (circles above, line below) or ichimonji mitsuboshi (line above, circles below) variation.

The book I'm drawing this information from doesn't provide a lot of details, but it does explain that the mitsuboshi ichimonji mon became nearly exclusive to the Watanabe family (originally of Nakao in Settsu province, now Osaka prefecture), although the Mikawa (modern Aichi prefecture) and Hizen (modern Saga/Nagasaki prefectures) branches also became prominent.

As for the full lineage, I don't have a good reference, but if the Watanabe-tô listed in my Nihonshi-jiten (Dictionary of Japanese History) is the same, which seems to be the case based on the description, then the main branch claims descent from one Watanabe no Tsuna, one of the four "heavenly generals" who served under Minamoto no Yorimitsu, a mid-Heian era general said to have driven away the Shûten-dôji of Ôeyama.

Best I can do.